Colon Health, Gut Loaded and ?Clean? food

John D Hirsch MD

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Colon health as many of us know is critical to overall health and happiness. The colon is among other things a neighborhood where many different commensal organisms live and flourish. They have a role in digesting the ?undigestibles? such as chitinous exoskeletons and cellulose from marine plant matter. Those are natural prebiotics and critical for the health of those bacteria which are called probiotic bacteria. These bacteria in addition to their role in digestion, also synthesize many important items including some water soluble vitamins. So Nature recognizes the importance of prebiotics and probiotics.
Let?s take a shrimp as an example. We have all learned that the best products are ?gut loaded?. That gut is loaded with phytoplankton, zooplankton that consumed phytoplankton, probiotic bacteria and prebiotic exoskeletons from a marine, not terrestrial sources. So why would you buy a food product that was cleaned and shucked removing all prebiotic exoskeletons and all natural probiotic bacteria. You may be leaving out the best parts.
So I prefer my all natural food to contain whole organism including head, tails, guts and are ?dirtier? than cleaner foods but contain everything for a healthy colon. Just the way it is in the ocean and not at the seafood counter at your local grocer.
For the record, I don?t understand adding any terrestrial plant matter to a marine food unless it was Popeye?s spinach. Nor do I understand adding terrestrial prebiotics and probiotics to marine food. An overgrowth of a terrestrial bacteria in the colon could wreak havoc on a healthy marine colon neighborhood. Is it worth it? Particularly when all natural healthy marine sources are easily available.
Love to hear from an opposing view.
Doc
 

John D Hirsch MD

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I don't but regardless of the brand name, they are all produced from fermented cows milk which contains large amounts of a sugar called lactose. The majority of the probiotics are a lactobacillus which facilitates the breakdown of those sugars. Probiotics may work for lactose intolerance and some with Irritable Bowel Syndrome.
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Thales

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Gut loading usually refers to live food, not fresh frozen food. We gut load because in captivity, it is unclear if the animals get the same kind of nutrition they get in the wild. It could easily be the case that the meat of fresh wild food is just fine without the guts. I think part of your idea does't work because most of the animals that we have in captivity don't eat the entire organism that gets gut loaded - small 'shrimp' like mysis or brine are not cleaned and shucked, only larger organisms, larger shrimp do, but as I mentioned, many of our animals don't swallow them whole anyway. I am also unsure how comparable human colon activity is to marine fish and invert colon activity.
 

Boomer

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Doc

Sorry, but it sounds to me you are speaking without any knowledge base of the issue at hand. I am one that believes strongly in data and not some spew because one says so. Please post or show any data on fish that your claim is true or has any validness at all. Trying to compare many others animals to fish is somewhat silly.

You might want to check on some of the fish research facilities and breeders and their great success using Probiotics. You are basically telling them all they don't know what they are doing. Hmm, colon activity, might want to check on Pyloric Caeca activity. Only fish have them.
 

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I typically refrain from posting comments directly rebutting those posted by another vendor who markets an aquarium food product. However, sometimes when information is presented which directly flies in the face of factual data I find it difficult to bite my tongue.

Such is the case with the recent two threads posted dealing with ?probiotics.? It is no secret that LRS was the first frozen food (to my knowledge) with active beneficial bacteria added since 2013. Obviously, I have a vested interest in conversations involving ?probiotic food additives? especially when someone doubts their efficacy. I find it a unique coincidence two other the threads in the AQUARIUM NUTRITION forum titled ?Pass the Beta Carotene? and "Astaxanthin" imply those natural supplements lack merit. Those supplements have a proven and cemented footing in aquaculture (as well as LRS food blends) but that is another discussion entirely.

If anyone would simply google ?Probiotics and Aquaculture? you will get enough scientific data and studies to read for a week. This was the first one that came up on my screen: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3671701/

This is the opening abstract with bold text highlighted by me.

?The growth of aquaculture as an industry has accelerated over the past decades; this has resulted in environmental damages and low productivity of various crops. The need for increased disease resistance, growth of aquatic organisms, and feed efficiency has brought about the use of probiotics in aquaculture practices. The first application of probiotics occurred in 1986, to test their ability to increase growth of hydrobionts (organisms that live in water). Later, probiotics were used to improve water quality and control of bacterial infections. Nowadays, there is documented evidence that probiotics can improve the digestibility of nutrients, increase tolerance to stress, and encourage reproduction. Currently, there are commercial probiotic products prepared from various bacterial species such as Bacillus sp., Lactobacillus sp., Enterococcus sp., Carnobacterium sp., and the yeast Saccharomyces cerevisiae among others, and their use is regulated by careful management recommendations. ?

There is nearly 30 years of data supporting the use of supplementing beneficial bacteria to boost the gut flora in fish. This trend has now started to make it?s way into the marine ornamental hobby, especially with the push towards captive breeding and conservation. This article was posted in 2012 on Advanced Aquarist and it is titled ?Probiotics significantly increase growth and health of larval clownfish.?

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/blog/probiotics-significantly-increase-growth-and-health-of-larval-clownfish

For the record I am going to admit that the following statements can be interpreted as a plug for my company. I can?t help it and could not find any other way to share the information except describing what I have been involved with firsthand.

LRS has had the benefit of working closely with many marine biologists and aquaculture facilities by supporting the Rising Tide Conservation project. Rising Tide is a collection of breeders and researchers dedicated to the hobby and the advancement of captive breeding of marine ornamentals.

Last July I attended the Marine Breeding Initiative where many of the leading marine breeders come together to discuss current trends and share knowledge. Probiotic supplementation was a big topic of discussion. A few programs we were involved in are listed here:

http://risingtideconservation.blogspot.com/2015/04/breaking-internet-check-out-our-wrasses.html

http://risingtideconservation.blogspot.com/2014/04/larval-rearing-of-purple-mask-angelfish.html

In addition it is no secret that the Tropical Aquaculture lab in Florida is working diligently to try and successfully captive breed blue tangs. With the upcoming release of the movie ?Finding Dory? this is a big deal. LRS has been working closely with Kevin Barden who is the researcher heading up the project. Kevin stated publicly that the larvae are ?repeatedly growing past previous bottlenecks since the broodstock have switched exclusively to LRS "Frenzy" foods in February 2015.?

We recently released the new Fertility Frenzy broodstock diet which contains FOUR strains of beneficial bacteria, and it is now the the exclusive feed for the tang broodstock. There have been no deleterious effects to date using our foods in that program and in fact other research labs have begun to use our feeds after hearing of Kevin?s results. The Fertility Frenzy blend was not merely thrown together but was assembled with guidance from some of the most talented breeders in the industry. The probiotic strains selected for that blend have a history of success in other feeds. In addition to strong retail sales it is also a preferred feed for several aquaculture facilities which is producing consistent results.

There are many clownfish breeders who are enjoying ?record spawns? and more success using foods dosed with ?probiotoics.?

Since releasing our foods in 2013 there are now other frozen foods available with probiotics and the trend only seems to be increasing since the results are so readily visible with improved fish health, vigor and fertility.

I would ask anyone who may be confused as to the safety or benefits of ?probiotics? to use the available data from the Internet and make your own decisions.

Larry DuPont
Owner
LRS Foods, LLC
 
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John D Hirsch MD

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Dear Larry
Thank you for posting in the aquarium nutrition forum. One of life's lessons I learned is there are many paths to the top of the mountain and they all work. Some work better than others, but they all work. There is much we can agree on
Your company produces excellent natural foods.
Probiotics and prebiotics are critical for health.
Where we disagree
I believe that Mother Nature's prebiotic and probiotics are an all-natural alternative to any external supplement. I am not the one making claims about results. I don't have to. Mother Nature should be the gold standard by which all diets are judged. I believe that an all-natural varied diet is both necessary and sufficient to a successful hobbyist experience. I don't believe that any supplements are necessary with a varied all natural diet. You do. We disagree.
I created this forum for hobbyist to educate them on the benefits of an all-natural varied diet without the need for a cabinet full of expensive supplements that can be acquired from an all-natural varied diet. Hobbyist should have broader latitude to decide what is best for their ecosystem. To me, aqua culturing is a business, not a hobby. Many of your links were related to very small study groups without controls in the aqua culturing industry. They are nothing more than testimonials. In the post about 3 pairs of wrasses, their diet included PE mysid shrimp, Otohime PE1 from Reed Mariculture all of which contain all natural probiotics in addition to your products. Fairly that report should have had a control group of 3 pairs of wrasses who were fed a diet deficient in exogenous probiotics to see if they had the same results. That?s science. There is much to learn from that industry but it is based on return on investment and mass production. Why add a probiotic supplement to products packed full of all natural probiotics and claim that they are superior? I have been very clear about my intentions as a champion for a healthy all natural foods. I would certainly support another forum called "Supplement Superstore" but this forum is about all natural foods. Supplements are for those who believe that either their current diet is deficient or mega doses are required for health. I don't, you do. We disagree. I don't believe in terrestrial plant matter as seaweed works just as well and is inexpensive, easily storable, and is all natural. Nor do I believe in garlic or other terrestrial supplements including probiotics and prebiotics from terrestrial sources are superior to all natural marine based products. That's ok. We don't have to agree on everything, it makes neither of us wrong. There are many paths to success. I believe in and will write about all natural diets as I believe it is an optimal path with a high success rate. It is called biomimicry and I make no apologies. Demeaning me is both childish and immature and cast doubts on your credibility. Because we disagree doesn?t make my opinions stupid, uneducated, or wrong. If I make a factual error, please correct me. If my opinion is different than yours, express your opinion. That?s what a forum is all about. For the record, below is a small portion of my nutritional expertise and background.

John D Hirsch MD ?Doc?
30 year hobbyist and Co-Founder of Doctor Eco Systems
B.S. Chemistry, Case Western University
M.D. Washington University School of Medicine
5 years post-doctoral training in Surgery and Oncology
Inventor of the Hirsch Catheter to feed patients intravenously
Research interest in acute and chronic starvation
Director of Nutritional Support, BJC Hospital
Chief of Surgery, MO Baptist Medical Center
CEO, Forest Park Hospital
 

John D Hirsch MD

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Boomer,
the anlage of the pyloric caeca in higher animals is the the cecum and appendix and that form exists in all animals as it is a place for critical bacteria to assist in digestion and production of vital nutrients. It is definitely not unique.
 

John D Hirsch MD

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Thales, I don't understand your comments. We both agree that gut loading is important. In prepared food it is gut loaded. It is the last meal before harvesting and flash freezing. Their guts are filled with all natural wild caught foods including phytoplantkon and zooplankton that consume phytoplantkon in addition to prebiotic and probiotic nutrients. All are consume whole. Each and every organism in your food from brine shrimp to krill and mysid shrimp all provide these critical nutrients.
Doc
 

Boomer

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John

I believe that Mother Nature's prebiotic and probiotics are an all-natural alternative to any external supplement. I am not the one making claims about results. I don't have to. Mother Nature should be the gold standard by which all diets are judged.

I am sorry but Mother Nature is not a closed system. Second, "judge" based on what, you have no data to back up your claim, your opinion or believe by verified results. That is not science at all but hearsay. You are claiming because I said so. That does not work for me. Show me a controlled study of your method vs say LRS. You can't, as you have none.

You say you are here to educate. I don't see that at all. You say you will continue to run this forum on natural foods. Then change the name, this forum is called Aquarium Nutrition. You run a fish food business yourself, which is natural food and here you are promoting natural food. On a number of occasions on this forum you have replied with your company name. That is illegal and violates the by-laws. This is not a forum for you to promote your business. You should not be talking about aquaculture businesses in a demeaning way, when you yourself is in the fish food business. Funny how you say LRS is a excellent food, then in the next breath try to steer people away from such foods. Pretty much a big conflict of interest.

Breeders and researchers for years have tried to breed unbreedable fish and only on the onset of new foods with probiotics have they had good results. Please tell them all they are all dreaming and are wrong.

So, you post a long resume to impress all. Sorry, that does not scare me the least. I could care less. It speaks nothing of your expertise on raising / breeding difficult marine fish and being successful at it or even fish health in general. You have nothing to back you up. I have seen and shown guys with Ph.D in chemistry they are wrong. I find at times people throwing degree stuff in ones face is demeaning in itself " look at me I am better than you". Oh, that resume on my forum, if you try for a come back, I did not write that or put that there. I could care less. You have 30 years in this hobby? Well, I have 49, so what. Time in hobby often has no meaning or if you have degree x, y or z.

Boomer
No degrees in anything, unless I claim NAVORSCHEOD.

PS
You may want to do a simple search on the pyloric caece in fish, which has stumped researchers for years on what it does. It is unique.
 
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Paul B

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OMG. Boomer, Larry and Doc. You guys are all friends of mine, kind of. OK, I don't really know Doc. But pump your brakes. I believe in gut bacteria as I have been researching it and just posted a long thread about it. http://www.manhattanreefs.com/forum/advanced-reefs/184191-discussion-immunity.html


I can't put all that fancy stuff after my name but I can try. I realize you guys have more degrees than thermometers. but I also have fish longer than all of you, 1952. LOL.


References:
Mostly me.
pole climbing school.
radio repair school
electrical construction school
leadership school.
helicopter pilot, (but not legally)
merchant marine captain
army Sargent
big mouth.
opinionated
high voltage school
certified scuba diver
auto mechanic
welder
oldest fish tank owner with a UG filter.
published author
patented inventor
I can go on, but why bother as these things have no bearing on fish. My smily thing don't work or I would put one here -------> <--------
 
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Thales

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Thales, I don't understand your comments. We both agree that gut loading is important. In prepared food it is gut loaded. It is the last meal before harvesting and flash freezing. Their guts are filled with all natural wild caught foods including phytoplantkon and zooplankton that consume phytoplantkon in addition to prebiotic and probiotic nutrients. All are consume whole. Each and every organism in your food from brine shrimp to krill and mysid shrimp all provide these critical nutrients.
Doc
The only foods 'cleaned and shucked' are too big for almost all of our fish to eat. So I am not sure what you are steering people away from when you said
"Let?s take a shrimp as an example. We have all learned that the best products are ?gut loaded?. That gut is loaded with phytoplankton, zooplankton that consumed phytoplankton, probiotic bacteria and prebiotic exoskeletons from a marine, not terrestrial sources. So why would you buy a food product that was cleaned and shucked removing all prebiotic exoskeletons and all natural probiotic bacteria. You may be leaving out the best parts.
So I prefer my all natural food to contain whole organism including head, tails, guts and are ?dirtier? than cleaner foods but contain everything for a healthy colon. Just the way it is in the ocean and not at the seafood counter at your local grocer. "

Why you would by a food product that was cleaned and shucked? Because it is squid or prawn or clam that your fish cannot consume whole. And, plenty of fish eat food that way in the wild.

Also, most foods in this hobby are not caught from anywhere near where our tank animals are from.
 
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Achillies

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I'm new here and have never actually posted. I can say though that I was lucky enough to meet Dr. Hirsch at MACNA in D.C. this year after his talk about healthy nutrition along with about 200 people and walked away wowed by the information he passed along.

If you caught his talk you know that he repeatedly mention how he liked LRS, pe mysis, and Rods and was not a fan of pellets or flakes foods. His talks got me to vary the food from just sinking pellets to using LRS along with raw Nori and Reef Nutritions R.O.E.

After reading this thoroughly twice I'm not understanding what the issue is, as he is speaking about why add probiotics when LRS filled with mysis shrimp already has natural versions of it and why clean the larger shrimp as that is a natural place to get probiotics also. Unless I'm missing something he clearly says that probiotics are important but get them naturally instead of buying supplements.

What id like to know is what happens long term when you are adding prebiotics and probiotics to fish from unnatural sources? I know from school that if you take vitamin C pills when you arent deficent in it that it can lead to kidney stones.

Simple google of harvard EDU high-dose-vitamin-c-linked-to-kidney-stones will elad you to it.

Lastly going through all of Dr. Hirsch articles he doesn't seem to promote the company he is tied to and there aren't forums about foods out there. Foods and the counters full of supplements are vast and with so many options this forum is a great idea. Boomer I'm guessing you are with another company and mad you were not ask to do the forum. Get over yourself before you explode. Dr. Hirsch please keep up the forum as this information is beneficial to us in the hobby.
 

Paul B

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I have been feeding live blackworms to my fish since the 60s not only for the food benefit, but for the live bacteria they have in their gut. I know someone is going to say I have no proof of that but I actually do. I have 24 year old spawning fish and virtually all my paired fish are spawning and I never have to quarantine, not in about 35 years. I don't know of a scientific study that lasts that long. I also feed clams which go along with the theory of this thread. Clams are a natural food from the sea that contain all the guts and "dirt" from being filter feeders. They also contain natural probiotics so I don't have to buy anything. But this is all just my theory as I also don't have any degrees, (I am actually proud of that)
 

marrone

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Boomer I'm guessing you are with another company and mad you were not ask to do the forum. Get over yourself before you explode.
Boomer isn't with another company, and he was asked, and is in charge of another forum on the board (Chemistry).

It's great to have an open discussion about issues, but please lets not make it personal.
 

Boomer

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Achilles

What ?

Boomer I'm guessing you are with another company and mad you were not ask to do the forum. Get over yourself before you explode.

You are clueless. I work for no company and have been fully retired for 10 years, from the iron ore mining company and EOD, 37 years. I have my own forum here in chemistry. I have NEVER worked for ANY aquarium company. Click on the link below and see where it takes you. You should get your facts straight before you come after me.

Why are you even hear? First post. Did John summons you to stick up for him ? Violations of forum rules are for everybody NOT the selected few or some one thinks they can violate them ....period. You are the one that needs to get over yourself not me. As a open forum host if you own a company, any company, you are NOT allowed to promote, direct, post, lead, use your vendor name, company name in ANY way....period. That is NOT happening here, a direct violation...period. If someone was putting down Doc's own food on this forum then he has the sole right to defend it IMHO but by rules should redirect it to his own vedor forum if he has one.

People want to bring up natural sources. Sorry, but brine shrimp, PE Mysis, black worms are not natural. There is not a marine fish in nature that eats them. It is no more natural than feeding marine fish Goldfish, which often causes fatty liver degeneration and stomach scale impaction that greatly reduces a marine fishes life.
 
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Boomer

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Paul

I have no issue with what you are doing. There is more than one way to skin a cat. I did the same as you for decades as you know. I also have no issue with sorry " natural" foods, to incude John's. But to put down one for another when someone's option comes off as fact bothers me. Fish and especially fish larvae are nothing like people when it comes to bringing them from hatching to a " fingerling ", subadult or adult. Allot of this breeding research is not all fish sales but to put fish back in the ocean.


Achilles

If said natural foods have the probiotics as claimed, then why in just the last couple of years has there been so much success, never seen before, until the supplementation of probiotics. There are many things in this hobby we don't understand, as they are not reefs but closed systems. Larry is not selling probiotics supplements they are added to his food.
 
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