Miracle Mud Analysis Complete!
- Thread starter MattM
- Start date
Here is a note I sent out to the MARSH group in Houston as many were having a hard time understanding how/why someone could/would charge $8 - $10 a pound for something “as cheap as dirt” (I guess that phrase is out now).
“A Miracle is Born”
Lets say that you start looking at filtration and you think that... hmmm... the mangrove mud flats are a great place for macro and other fauna and flora and critters and this could be a great model for a closed system filter... Besides haven't I heard that much of the Ion exchange and "filtration" of seawater occurs in these kinds of areas?
Let’s go look at setting up a refugium sump with a mud/silt or whatever substrate... just not normal beach sand or crushed coral. Something that we would think could mimic the mangrove situation. Well we try a number of possible substrates. We try clay, dirt, real mangrove mud, sludge from the bottom of very old tanks, and whatever we can find that makes any sense at all. Some of it is too fluffy, some too compact, some kills all the life, some causes killer blooms, some results in no algae growth, some just smells bad, and on and on.
Then one day after months maybe years of experimentation you find yourself in the backyard with your dog. Well, you notice the big hole you mutt has dug in the yard and while you contemplate what form of corporal punishment is in store for the beast you stop and think... hmm this combination of dirt and clay and black sand looks curiously like the "substrate" you have been looking for. You think to yourself... "This used to be a big ancient sea"... Maybe we should try it... You worry about the tons of fertilizer you have been using on the lawn in this are for years... Nah... it would be a MIRACLE if it worked...
But... because you will try anything at this point you put a couple of marine animals up as experimental sacrificial lambs. A week, a month, damn... a year, this stuff is working... only a few water changes (no more than you used to perform with the Berlin or Jaubert)... macro-algae is busting out. Animals are doing handstands... man this is a miracle!!! hmmm miracle.... hmmm mud... hmmm ancient sea bed..... hmmm "Miracle Mud"!!!! Let’s go for it.
Well Vern, how much to charge for it... Well this IS America... What is the cost of the development... well took me quite a while to stumble on to this... lots of salt, water, creatures.... Buy the way, what would people pay for a "Miracle"?
Let’s see...
"Miracle White" basically baking soda at 150 times the price...
"Miracle Bra" as I said before, I don't care what is the cost of it, IT WORKS!!!
"Miracle Max" a funny character in the "Princess Bride"... I would pay a lot to see Billy Crystal...
"Miracle Cloth" a rag with polish ground into it and costs 100 times the ingredients...
Ok... lets charge $100.00 a pound for the stuff. You need 10 pounds per 60 gallons of tank water so we will make a fortune...
Damn... nobody is buying it... what are they thinking... it IS a miracle after all.. These kinds of miracles don't come cheap.
Ok... Lower the price per pound... $80... $50... $20... $8... ok they are starting to buy the stuff... good 'ol supply and demand of the free enterprise system. We leveled out at about $8 a pound... Well believe it or not that is not a great deal of profit once you consider that I have to dig that stuff up. Clean it up. Add some fertilizer, bag it, market it, distribute it... and the fact that even though it truly is a "Miracle" it still is not selling like hot cakes... hmmm hot cakes.... I wonder if I should add some of those to the mix....
Soon some one else will come up with "Sensational Sand" or "I can't Believe it is Just a Brick" product and show me some real competition until then... Miracles CAN happen...
“A Miracle is Born”
Lets say that you start looking at filtration and you think that... hmmm... the mangrove mud flats are a great place for macro and other fauna and flora and critters and this could be a great model for a closed system filter... Besides haven't I heard that much of the Ion exchange and "filtration" of seawater occurs in these kinds of areas?
Let’s go look at setting up a refugium sump with a mud/silt or whatever substrate... just not normal beach sand or crushed coral. Something that we would think could mimic the mangrove situation. Well we try a number of possible substrates. We try clay, dirt, real mangrove mud, sludge from the bottom of very old tanks, and whatever we can find that makes any sense at all. Some of it is too fluffy, some too compact, some kills all the life, some causes killer blooms, some results in no algae growth, some just smells bad, and on and on.
Then one day after months maybe years of experimentation you find yourself in the backyard with your dog. Well, you notice the big hole you mutt has dug in the yard and while you contemplate what form of corporal punishment is in store for the beast you stop and think... hmm this combination of dirt and clay and black sand looks curiously like the "substrate" you have been looking for. You think to yourself... "This used to be a big ancient sea"... Maybe we should try it... You worry about the tons of fertilizer you have been using on the lawn in this are for years... Nah... it would be a MIRACLE if it worked...
But... because you will try anything at this point you put a couple of marine animals up as experimental sacrificial lambs. A week, a month, damn... a year, this stuff is working... only a few water changes (no more than you used to perform with the Berlin or Jaubert)... macro-algae is busting out. Animals are doing handstands... man this is a miracle!!! hmmm miracle.... hmmm mud... hmmm ancient sea bed..... hmmm "Miracle Mud"!!!! Let’s go for it.
Well Vern, how much to charge for it... Well this IS America... What is the cost of the development... well took me quite a while to stumble on to this... lots of salt, water, creatures.... Buy the way, what would people pay for a "Miracle"?
Let’s see...
"Miracle White" basically baking soda at 150 times the price...
"Miracle Bra" as I said before, I don't care what is the cost of it, IT WORKS!!!
"Miracle Max" a funny character in the "Princess Bride"... I would pay a lot to see Billy Crystal...
"Miracle Cloth" a rag with polish ground into it and costs 100 times the ingredients...
Ok... lets charge $100.00 a pound for the stuff. You need 10 pounds per 60 gallons of tank water so we will make a fortune...
Damn... nobody is buying it... what are they thinking... it IS a miracle after all.. These kinds of miracles don't come cheap.
Ok... Lower the price per pound... $80... $50... $20... $8... ok they are starting to buy the stuff... good 'ol supply and demand of the free enterprise system. We leveled out at about $8 a pound... Well believe it or not that is not a great deal of profit once you consider that I have to dig that stuff up. Clean it up. Add some fertilizer, bag it, market it, distribute it... and the fact that even though it truly is a "Miracle" it still is not selling like hot cakes... hmmm hot cakes.... I wonder if I should add some of those to the mix....
Soon some one else will come up with "Sensational Sand" or "I can't Believe it is Just a Brick" product and show me some real competition until then... Miracles CAN happen...
There's no doubt that people have had some success with this approach. What I want to know is HOW and WHY their systems are working. The analysis that we had done does not show me anything in the mud that would explain all the claims made for the product.
I have been doing some further research on Caulerpa and turned up some interesting things. For instance, one book has a section on the antibiotic properties of caulerpa and goes so far as to state: "There is a lower incidence of fish disease in systems containing caulerpa or algal turf scubbers." Could this be the source of the HLLE cure claimed for MM?
The way I see it, there are two ways to proceed:
1) Perform another analysis, this time on 6-month old mud. By comparing it to new mud we should be able to see what elements are being used or released into the system. I know everyone has picked up on the iron-feeds-algae point, but if the iron present is locked up in mica, I doubt it is available as a plant food. Another analysis might provide the answer.
2) Set up two identical systems. Same size, same approximate bio-load. Put a hang-on-the-tank refugium on both. In one, place caulerpa growing in Miracle Mud. In the other, caulerpa growing in aragonite sand. Don't add anything except food to either system and regularly monitor water quality, fish health, and coral health.
Based on the reading I've done, I suspect that the caulerpa is responsible for most or all of the benefits in this system. I further suspect that Miracle Mud exists because there isn't a way to make money on caulerpa.
As for the debate on my use of the term "lie"...
They say it's oceanic mud. I don't believe them. Not even a little bit oceanic. Furthermore, this belief is grounded observable facts.
On my side I have: 1) microphotos that show no evidence of any oceanic life, diatoms, shells, etc., 2) an acid test that shows zero carbonates (and if the calcium present is oceanic, then it's calcium carbonate - this is not), and 3) a detailed elemental analysis from reputable firm that agrees with a second independent analysis and does not agree with the residual elements that would be present from seawater.
On their side they have: an advertising claim.
Now, to me, saying "I think your claim is false" is the same as saying "I think your claim is a lie". If that's the wrong term to use in a legal sense, fine I'll accept that.
Question for all involved in this debate: Have you ever seen Miracle Mud? I don't mean to be sarcastic here - it's a serious question. This stuff even smells like dirt. We've discussed this whole issue with customers on several occasions. Then we pull a container of MM out of the back and hand it to them. Response 100% of the time: "Jeez, it's dirt!"
I have been doing some further research on Caulerpa and turned up some interesting things. For instance, one book has a section on the antibiotic properties of caulerpa and goes so far as to state: "There is a lower incidence of fish disease in systems containing caulerpa or algal turf scubbers." Could this be the source of the HLLE cure claimed for MM?
The way I see it, there are two ways to proceed:
1) Perform another analysis, this time on 6-month old mud. By comparing it to new mud we should be able to see what elements are being used or released into the system. I know everyone has picked up on the iron-feeds-algae point, but if the iron present is locked up in mica, I doubt it is available as a plant food. Another analysis might provide the answer.
2) Set up two identical systems. Same size, same approximate bio-load. Put a hang-on-the-tank refugium on both. In one, place caulerpa growing in Miracle Mud. In the other, caulerpa growing in aragonite sand. Don't add anything except food to either system and regularly monitor water quality, fish health, and coral health.
Based on the reading I've done, I suspect that the caulerpa is responsible for most or all of the benefits in this system. I further suspect that Miracle Mud exists because there isn't a way to make money on caulerpa.
As for the debate on my use of the term "lie"...
They say it's oceanic mud. I don't believe them. Not even a little bit oceanic. Furthermore, this belief is grounded observable facts.
On my side I have: 1) microphotos that show no evidence of any oceanic life, diatoms, shells, etc., 2) an acid test that shows zero carbonates (and if the calcium present is oceanic, then it's calcium carbonate - this is not), and 3) a detailed elemental analysis from reputable firm that agrees with a second independent analysis and does not agree with the residual elements that would be present from seawater.
On their side they have: an advertising claim.
Now, to me, saying "I think your claim is false" is the same as saying "I think your claim is a lie". If that's the wrong term to use in a legal sense, fine I'll accept that.
Question for all involved in this debate: Have you ever seen Miracle Mud? I don't mean to be sarcastic here - it's a serious question. This stuff even smells like dirt. We've discussed this whole issue with customers on several occasions. Then we pull a container of MM out of the back and hand it to them. Response 100% of the time: "Jeez, it's dirt!"
Hi Matt,
I have the Miracle Mud, but I'm not using it in one of their refugium systems. I'm using it as the bottom layer in my refugium DSB. You mentioned in a different post that you had a system going, and had yet to see any life in it (worms). Is that still the case?
In my system, I have seen a few worms venture into it, but they're not staying there. Could it be because of the sharp edges of the quartz and the soft bodied worms that would obviously be cut up in that type of substrate?
Also, I had mentioned that I was having success with growing caulerpa in the MM. That is no longer the case. It has all since died.
My "miracle" could be fading!
I'm also in the middle of tracking down a severe bryopsis bloom.
Mitch
I have the Miracle Mud, but I'm not using it in one of their refugium systems. I'm using it as the bottom layer in my refugium DSB. You mentioned in a different post that you had a system going, and had yet to see any life in it (worms). Is that still the case?
In my system, I have seen a few worms venture into it, but they're not staying there. Could it be because of the sharp edges of the quartz and the soft bodied worms that would obviously be cut up in that type of substrate?
Also, I had mentioned that I was having success with growing caulerpa in the MM. That is no longer the case. It has all since died.
My "miracle" could be fading!
Mitch
Matt... you ARE the MAN... really, you are continually trying to base this discussion on fact and not fiction. I would like to add to the thanks for doing the initial stateside tests of this product. I am sure that the manufacturer hates this particular debate and technical investigation.
I believe that the Mud “works” because of several things... (Could you look at my hypothesis post?)
I am going to work with others here in Houston and do the online operational test you call for. We should use the HO Refugium like you said including same water batches, lighting and cycle. Food content… etc… This could provide some anecdotal evidence (albeit a small sample size) to lead to further technical testing and hypothesis.
Further, I think that i may also look into some of the micro-balls that we (NASA) are producing in space. These could potentially lead to a new substrate as well. I can’t help but think these anaerobic bacteria farms are contingent on particle size (and weight).
I believe that the Mud “works” because of several things... (Could you look at my hypothesis post?)
I am going to work with others here in Houston and do the online operational test you call for. We should use the HO Refugium like you said including same water batches, lighting and cycle. Food content… etc… This could provide some anecdotal evidence (albeit a small sample size) to lead to further technical testing and hypothesis.
Further, I think that i may also look into some of the micro-balls that we (NASA) are producing in space. These could potentially lead to a new substrate as well. I can’t help but think these anaerobic bacteria farms are contingent on particle size (and weight).
I thought I'd throw this url out for people to review as well. It's on using natural backyard dirt for freshwater planted tanks (which for argument's sake can be applied to this thread):
http://home.infinet.net/teban/
On a sub-page of that website, they go into detail on how the iron exactly gets out of the substrate to be biologically used by plants:
http://home.infinet.net/teban/iron/ironw.html
Please scroll down to section #3 and it will explain how bound iron is made biologically available.
Man, I'd really like someone to try taking some Southdown and dropping in some laterite into it to see if they get the same results. The only thing that I can think that would possibly need supplementing for plant growth would be magnesium (which MM also has in it's formula) in case for some reason the Caulerpa growth would somehow deplete this (this is just a guess).
Shane (aka "liquid")
http://home.infinet.net/teban/
On a sub-page of that website, they go into detail on how the iron exactly gets out of the substrate to be biologically used by plants:
http://home.infinet.net/teban/iron/ironw.html
Please scroll down to section #3 and it will explain how bound iron is made biologically available.
Man, I'd really like someone to try taking some Southdown and dropping in some laterite into it to see if they get the same results. The only thing that I can think that would possibly need supplementing for plant growth would be magnesium (which MM also has in it's formula) in case for some reason the Caulerpa growth would somehow deplete this (this is just a guess).
Shane (aka "liquid")
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by clkohly:
<STRONG>Tom said that in the MM system you have setup at the store there are tons of pods and worms etc. He just said that the worms dont venture into the mud very much or at all. I dont think they need to anyways.</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I checked it yesterday, and yes, there are some 'pods and worms on the surface now. But it has taken an incredibly long time for them to move in there. For the first 5-1/2 months this system has had no visible life at all.
I agree they don't need to be there, I was just pointing out the oddity that they had not moved in, when they will fully populate an aragonite bed within a week or so.
I don't think there's much of a mystery here. It's probably as Mitch (Carpentersreef) suggests above - the grain size and sharp edges probably aren't conducive to benthic life.
[ October 22, 2001: Message edited by: MattM ]
<STRONG>Tom said that in the MM system you have setup at the store there are tons of pods and worms etc. He just said that the worms dont venture into the mud very much or at all. I dont think they need to anyways.</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I checked it yesterday, and yes, there are some 'pods and worms on the surface now. But it has taken an incredibly long time for them to move in there. For the first 5-1/2 months this system has had no visible life at all.
I agree they don't need to be there, I was just pointing out the oddity that they had not moved in, when they will fully populate an aragonite bed within a week or so.
I don't think there's much of a mystery here. It's probably as Mitch (Carpentersreef) suggests above - the grain size and sharp edges probably aren't conducive to benthic life.
[ October 22, 2001: Message edited by: MattM ]
I have had my tank setup for about 3 weeks and pods made their way into the sump within a day or so. Right now the sump is loaded with SPaghetti worms, bristle worms and pods. I am sure the population will increase as the plant life starts to grow more. I have brillo pad, caulerpa and halimeda growing in my sump right now.
Chris
Chris
Lie, untrue, misleading, false.. whatever. The point is, we've all known for some time this wasn't oceanic sediment.. now that a few people have spent their own money and time to add evidence to this sentiment.. it's pretty rediculous to have a long argument about semantics of the term "lie" and whether it'e ethical to say they have been "lying" about the products origin.. just like there were people really angry about the combisan thing, and are angry now about this, the FACT is they are products that are not what they are advertised to be. So if people in general use the brain god gave them, they'll quit supporting companies that use words like "magic" on their products and just use some common sense before we spend our money..
If you don't mind this type of thing tho.. I'll sell you some repackaged RO water as trace elements for 10 dollars a bottle.. and super seekonk silt (SSS for you acronym types) and nobody better complain about my integrity afterwords.. calling me a liar for selling it as trace elements and refugium booster would be wrong and it might hurt my feelings too.
Matt: As a fellow LFS owner, I appreciate your willingness to do these types of things and stand up for your opinion. I ought to come visit your store someday..
If you don't mind this type of thing tho.. I'll sell you some repackaged RO water as trace elements for 10 dollars a bottle.. and super seekonk silt (SSS for you acronym types) and nobody better complain about my integrity afterwords.. calling me a liar for selling it as trace elements and refugium booster would be wrong and it might hurt my feelings too.
Matt: As a fellow LFS owner, I appreciate your willingness to do these types of things and stand up for your opinion. I ought to come visit your store someday..
Well said. We are having this same discussion on my local aquarium society mailing list atm.
On the one hand you have the group of people who really don't care what is in the product...seriously. They don't care...because hey, "it worked for Joe, and his/her tank looks great.
On the other hand you have the inquisitive "Ask why" types who would really like to know what's in something before they add it to their multi-thousand $$$$$ reeftank.
I'm in the latter group, but I'm starting to realize that there are a BUNCH of people in the former...:-/
Tom/Matt: Thanks for throwing some real live facts into the discussion.
Cheers
James
On the one hand you have the group of people who really don't care what is in the product...seriously. They don't care...because hey, "it worked for Joe, and his/her tank looks great.
On the other hand you have the inquisitive "Ask why" types who would really like to know what's in something before they add it to their multi-thousand $$$$$ reeftank.
I'm in the latter group, but I'm starting to realize that there are a BUNCH of people in the former...:-/
Tom/Matt: Thanks for throwing some real live facts into the discussion.
Cheers
James
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by clkohly:
<strong>Carpenter: You did about everything they say not to do on their site.
The mud works a whole lot better being in a sump or hang on refugium with just about 1" I believe it being at the bottom of a couple inches of aragonite is not allowing it to do what its supposed to do. The mud also needs a decent flow across the top of it. In some cases about 1000gph or more. Could have something to do with it all being trapped in an anerobic zone.
Chris Kohly</strong><hr></blockquote>
Chris,
While I agree that I don't have the recommended setup, I saw nowhere where Ecosystem recommended NOT doing what I did.
All I could find is where they recommend against a shallow sandbed in the main tank. That should go without saying, anyways. With a shallow sandbed, you don't have the proper anaerobic zones necessary for bacteria like nitrosomonas and nitrobacter that are responsible for breaking down detritus. (If I have my thinking wrong, correct me, I'm kinda going from memory only
)
My thinking in putting the MM within my DSB in my refugium was to accomplish getting the minerals or whatever into my system only, and since in such a mud type consistencency you are going to get anaerobic zones anyways, why should it matter where in a DSB the MM is located? Why does it need surface water movement?
My reef is pretty much an ongoing learning thing for me, and I don't want to take any manufacturers' claims of success carte blanche. It was a fairly big leap for me to purchase anything labeled "miracle", but from MANY peoples' testimonials, I decided to try it in my tank.
Now I've got to try to determine why, WITH Miracle Mud in my system, I can grow bryopsis, but not caulerpa.
The info and debate that Matt has brought up is going to help a lot.
Mitch
[ October 22, 2001: Message edited by: Carpentersreef ]</p>
<strong>Carpenter: You did about everything they say not to do on their site.
Chris Kohly</strong><hr></blockquote>
Chris,
While I agree that I don't have the recommended setup, I saw nowhere where Ecosystem recommended NOT doing what I did.
My thinking in putting the MM within my DSB in my refugium was to accomplish getting the minerals or whatever into my system only, and since in such a mud type consistencency you are going to get anaerobic zones anyways, why should it matter where in a DSB the MM is located? Why does it need surface water movement?
My reef is pretty much an ongoing learning thing for me, and I don't want to take any manufacturers' claims of success carte blanche. It was a fairly big leap for me to purchase anything labeled "miracle", but from MANY peoples' testimonials, I decided to try it in my tank.
Now I've got to try to determine why, WITH Miracle Mud in my system, I can grow bryopsis, but not caulerpa.
The info and debate that Matt has brought up is going to help a lot.
Mitch
[ October 22, 2001: Message edited by: Carpentersreef ]</p>
Mitch: Sorry I dont think they have that particular part on their website but I had asked them about it and was told that it wouldnt be very advisable. Perhaps Shane could figure out why it wouldnt work. My guess is something to do with the iron or other element not being able to leach out properly being stuck under all that aragonite.
Heh My last DSB tank was good at growing Bryopsis and hair algae as opposed to Caulerpa. That was mainly due to not using RO/DI water. What type of topoff do you use?
Chris
Heh My last DSB tank was good at growing Bryopsis and hair algae as opposed to Caulerpa. That was mainly due to not using RO/DI water. What type of topoff do you use?
Chris
Chris, thanks,
But I've got RO/DI with recently changed cartridges and membrane. Before I had a reef tank, I had FW for about 25 years. At the tail end of keeping FW, I used laterite, and had GREAT success. I understood that there was chelated and non-chelated iron and that plants could use ony the chelated version. The non chelated version would have been similar to putting an iron nail in the tank and watching it rust away, and the plants not being able to absorb it. (I hope I don't have this backwards) I thought that the MM would be of the same principle, therefore it wouldn't matter WHERE in the aquarium system it would be placed. The iron (or something else) would still be available for plants to use. Apparently I am wrong, and I am determined to find out where.
BTW, I just want to say that, if at any point, I saw my fish or corals suffering from my "experimenting", I am fully prepared to set up a new system to put them in, or utilize my LFS's tanks to house them in. As of yet, the only bad change that I have noticed is the my GOB has not been fully expanding in the last couple of months. Every other animal in my system has been doing fine, even growing and reproducing. (my BTA and Bangaii Cardinals for example)
Mitch
But I've got RO/DI with recently changed cartridges and membrane. Before I had a reef tank, I had FW for about 25 years. At the tail end of keeping FW, I used laterite, and had GREAT success. I understood that there was chelated and non-chelated iron and that plants could use ony the chelated version. The non chelated version would have been similar to putting an iron nail in the tank and watching it rust away, and the plants not being able to absorb it. (I hope I don't have this backwards) I thought that the MM would be of the same principle, therefore it wouldn't matter WHERE in the aquarium system it would be placed. The iron (or something else) would still be available for plants to use. Apparently I am wrong, and I am determined to find out where.
BTW, I just want to say that, if at any point, I saw my fish or corals suffering from my "experimenting", I am fully prepared to set up a new system to put them in, or utilize my LFS's tanks to house them in. As of yet, the only bad change that I have noticed is the my GOB has not been fully expanding in the last couple of months. Every other animal in my system has been doing fine, even growing and reproducing. (my BTA and Bangaii Cardinals for example)
Mitch
I have used Miracle Mud for almost a year now. The calurpa is very fast growing. I have a 55 gallon reef and a 20 gallon sump partitioned with 10 lbs of MM. I also mixed 20 lbs of aragonite sugar sand into the mud. I remove half the algae on a monthly basis. I think the iron helps the calurpa grow. I'm pleased with the product. Although, my only complaint is the high price.
Me and everybody else.
Me and everybody else.
Mitch you are correct on the chelated vs unchelated. My question is this, I use Florite in my plant tank and one of the advantages of this type of substrate is that the plant roots must remove the iron from the Florite itself. The purpose of this is to keep the iron out of the water column which in turn keeps it away from the algae. In your tank are the roots of the caulerpa actually in the MM?
Steve
Steve
Steve,
No the roots are not in the MM. I have caulerpa in the form of the branches or leaves only, from other peoples tanks. The MM is at least 2 inches below the surface of the DSB. Do you think it would make that much of a difference? The branches or leaves only were growing initially.
Mitch
No the roots are not in the MM. I have caulerpa in the form of the branches or leaves only, from other peoples tanks. The MM is at least 2 inches below the surface of the DSB. Do you think it would make that much of a difference? The branches or leaves only were growing initially.
Mitch
Mitch, I am just wondering if it is like florite/laterite where the iron is not supposed to be released in the water column? I know when I have read where someone has added iron in a liquid form to help their caulerpa grow I always cringe. When I added iron in this form to my planted tank the algae took off, I don't think the plants ever got a chance to use it. Now I know we are talking about caulerpa algae here, but all algae loves iron and I don't know which algae gets satisfied first. Just some thoughts.
Steve
Steve
Carpenter: You did about everything they say not to do on their site.
The mud works a whole lot better being in a sump or hang on refugium with just about 1" I believe it being at the bottom of a couple inches of aragonite is not allowing it to do what its supposed to do. The mud also needs a decent flow across the top of it. In some cases about 1000gph or more. Could have something to do with it all being trapped in an anerobic zone.
Whoever said the kittylitter part I think it was steve: heh I never said you couldnt use kitty litter infact I still believe a good portion of the MM is made from calcium bentonite which is in fact mined in india in a brackish and in some instances saltwater habitat. Now there are tons of freshwater and dry places you can find it too. The kitty litter is heavilly refined in order to get specific grainsize etc. I think the MM is not refined at all....which explains the occasional stick.
Shane: I dont know if the laterite and aragonite would work as efficiently. I would look for a much finer substrate a little closer to the grain sizes present in MM. It makes a very packed substrate when wet.
MattM: Tom said that in the MM system you have setup at the store there are tons of pods and worms etc. He just said that the worms dont venture into the mud very much or at all. I dont think they need to anyways. They've got all that caulerpa and the surface of the mud to crawl around.
Chris Kohly
Whoever said the kittylitter part I think it was steve: heh I never said you couldnt use kitty litter infact I still believe a good portion of the MM is made from calcium bentonite which is in fact mined in india in a brackish and in some instances saltwater habitat. Now there are tons of freshwater and dry places you can find it too. The kitty litter is heavilly refined in order to get specific grainsize etc. I think the MM is not refined at all....which explains the occasional stick.
Shane: I dont know if the laterite and aragonite would work as efficiently. I would look for a much finer substrate a little closer to the grain sizes present in MM. It makes a very packed substrate when wet.
MattM: Tom said that in the MM system you have setup at the store there are tons of pods and worms etc. He just said that the worms dont venture into the mud very much or at all. I dont think they need to anyways. They've got all that caulerpa and the surface of the mud to crawl around.
Chris Kohly
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We're a FREE website, and we exist because of hobbyists like YOU who help us run this community.
Click here to sponsor $10:
