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Anonymous

Guest
They're not dangerous. That's pretty much an urban myth. My understanding is that hydrogen sulfide quickly oxidizes in water to sulfuric acid and other breakdown products (which cause the grey-black color). The sulfuric acid is not a problem in a calcareous sand bed. It simply reacts with the local calcium carbonate, releasing free calcium into the water.
 
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Anonymous

Guest
Hello,

I recently started a 15 gallon refugium with a 4" sandbed. The sand is a mix of mostly fine oolitic sand, some 1mm aragonite and ten pounds of live sand. I noticed a small patch of dark grey to black under the surface that has grown from .5"x1" area to .75"x3.75".

I've read that these areas can flucuate in size and will stabalize themselves, my question is at what size do they become dangerous? Is it already dangerous and if so what can I do about it?

Troy
 
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Anonymous

Guest
It's nice to have such a well rounded population on this board. Metal sulfides sound very reasonable to me.
 
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Anonymous

Guest
Thanks guys,

I remember reading the Biogeek posts on Aqualink and that is what I needed.

Troy
 
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Anonymous

Guest
While I disagree with some of Rob's specific points in justifying the need to not worry (in the link above), the concerns about H2S do seem overblown.

As long as one isn't messing about with the sand bed, a bit of H2S/HS- down deep in the sand is not likely a problem. I've certainly heard of plenty of people who had such a situation without a problem.

The concern, in my mind, comes in when people do something to the sand. That can potentially release large amounts of HS- into the tank all at once, and may reach a toxic level. Many of us have seen posts from people who had exactly this happen (apparently).

FWIW, I think that the black color is actually metal sulfides that have precipitated from solution. Many of these are colored (or black) and are quite insoluble. In fact, it may be the precipitation of such sulfides that keeps the concentration of HS- from getting too high in the tank.

------------------
Randy Holmes-Farley
 
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Anonymous

Guest
Nathan:

The various forms of H2S (H2S, HS-, and S--) are all colorless. The various forms of elemental sulfur are yellow or amber. Sulfuric acid is colorless. The insoluble heavy metal sulfides are often darkly colored (e.g., molybdenum disulfide is grey/black). Thus, I think if it's grey or black, it is probably a metal sulfide.

As to tanks with animals that dig deep not having a problem, I'll make four suggestions. Tanks with animals that dig deep may not be as prone to such patches. The animals may not dig deep enough to disturb such patches. They may get a whiff of HS- or H2S as they dig close to one, and stop digging in that direction. The amount that is released by any giving digging event may be small, compared to an aquarist turning over the entire sand bed for some reason.

------------------
Randy Holmes-Farley


[This message has been edited by Randy Holmes-Farley (edited 14 June 2000).]
 
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Anonymous

Guest
Randy is correct -- the black zones which we associate with sulfide reduction zones are not the visible result of H2S per se (rather the reduction of various other compunds such as metals - I discussed this in greater detail in the FAMA articles), but they are a reliable marker for the presence of anaerobic respiration in the sandbed and in the end that is all that really matters to effectively managing a sandbed, IMO.

It is sort of the last explanation that Randy offers which can account for the presence of H2S not causing serious problems to infauna in an aquarium. I point out in a number of places (often in bold) that a large and continuous production of H2S, methane or other anaerobic decomposition products will likely be detrimental to your tank inhabitants, but zones of anoxia deep in the sediments and the accompanying sulfate reduction or methanogenesis can perform a variety of useful functions, including binding toxic heavy metals, regenerating some nutrients, possibly even supporting populations of chemoautotrophic bacteria that can directly take up compounds toxic to aerobes and convert them into a useful nutrient source for other bacteria and infauna in the aerobic layers above them. If the system is continually overloaded, the aquarium is bound to collapse and the eruption of “sulfide volcano” or some other consequence of sulfide poisoning in the aquarium is one potential outcome – of course, given continued nutrient overloading in a system, there is no other method that could prevent a similar outcome...

Having said that, I explained the activity of the meiofauna (animals that live between sand grains in a sandbed) in the FAMA articles as well. The punchline is essentially that these animals are quite tolerant of high sulfide concentrations and, in fact, frequently burrow well into the sulfide reduction zones, which causes slow relase of sulfide as suggested by Randy. These reduction products are typically oxidized once they penetrate the aerobic layers of the sandbed if their movement is slow, and are also often consumed by animals in those layers. In fact, the reason that these animals burrow into the sulfide zones is for feeding -- they eat the reduced compunds present in the anoxic regions of the sandbed. In fact, the meiofauna provide an important and major pathway for nutrients to re-enter the aerobic zone of the sandbed above the sulfide reduction zones (as I mentioned above). This explains why people often observe animals or animal tracks/burrows in anoxic regions of their sandbeds. For example, anaerobic sulfur bacteria may account for nearly 1/3 of the diet of ciliates, and grazing rates by infauna averaged something on the order of 3% of the total bacteria and 1% of the total diatoms in the sediments per hour in highly productive regions of natural estuaries.

The diet of meiofauna examined consisted primarily of diatoms, flagellates, sulfur bacteria and “other” bacteria (including cyanobacteria and chemoautotrophic bacteria), which together accounted for over 90% of the diet, the relative contribution of each depending on the species. In all cases however, when researchers examined the diet of specific taxa of sand infauna, anaerobic bacteria were important enough to be named specifically as one of the main diet items rather than being lumped into the "other" category.

Why should anyone care about this -- well bacteria process nutrients best while actively growing, and these data argue that meiofaunal grazing probably represents an important stimulatory effect on the benthic microbial community, and is also essential to the long-term health and stability of sandbeds in closed systems.

In general my feeling is that the release of a large amount of H2S into the aquarium is a symptom of a larger problem with mechanisms of nutrient export. I have never seen or spoken personally with anyone who experienced a problem with H2S in their aquarium that I would trust to look after my tank while I went on vacation. I believe that as with many aquarium myths, as Randy and I have both said already, the dangers of H2S in the aquarium seem to be quite overblown. I can honestly say that I've had the same problems that everyone else likely experiences sometime (e.g., a powerhead fall down and blast a huge hole in my sandbed) and suffered no great tank disasters as a result. Perhaps I was just really lucky...
wink.gif


Rob



[This message has been edited by Biogeek (edited 14 June 2000).]
 
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Anonymous

Guest
Randy,

Do you mean the black colouration is always metal sulfides and is there a way of telling the difference? As for disturbing the sand bed how would you explain those with deep sand beds that have animals that dig not having problems? Is it just that there was not sufficient hydrogen sulfide to cause a problem?

Troy
 
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Anonymous

Guest
I also thank Rob & Randy for these extra snip bits of info.
Martyn
BTW Randy just for a little fun check this out no offence intended
biggrin.gif
http://www.kabalarians.com/gkh/your.htm
http://www.kabalarians.com/male/randy.htm
http://www.kabalarians.com/male/rob.htm

http://www.kabalarians.com/male/troy.htm

Better give mine http://www.kabalarians.com/male/martyn.htm

[This message has been edited by martynhulyer (edited 14 June 2000).]

[This message has been edited by martynhulyer (edited 14 June 2000).]
 
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Anonymous

Guest
Martyn:

You know, I think my company just wasted thousands of dollars on a consultant to tell me some of the same things!

------------------
Randy Holmes-Farley


[This message has been edited by Randy Holmes-Farley (edited 15 June 2000).]
 
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Anonymous

Guest
What's that Randy? That we're both supposed to be headed for sterility?
wink.gif
smile.gif


Rob
 
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Anonymous

Guest
Martynhulyer,

That name thing is scary, fit my wife and I to a tee.

Regards,

Scott
 
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Anonymous

Guest
phewww glad no offence taken.
biggrin.gif

Very strange how close they get in some bits hey.
Martyn
 

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