Should importers keep importing animals that are tank raised

[JeremyR]

Mary/charles:

I sell solomans frags and have been very happy with them. The few walt frags I"ve seen were ok, and I did try to bring them in, but I was unable to find a source... and I've been told he doesn't even keep them in stock at his LA facility. Fine..whatever.. the soloman frags are quite nice, and other islands are going to start importing them.. and it doesn't bother me one iota not to support mr. walt smith.

 

[Anonymous]

Jeremy, you're still getting Solomon's frags? I had thought the farming operation there was closed down now.

 

[MaryHM]

I got 15 solomon frags last week. All were PERFECT and gorgeous!!

 

[Anonymous]

Don't rub it in unless you start selling to the public, Mary

 

[JeremyR]

The marshall stuff is probably dif types of acros mary.. sol's tend to ship compact branchers like the millepora type.

I got my last batch of solomans in sept or so I think.. I haven't transhipped there since, because it was a longer flight than they used to use, and the fish didn't take it too well, tho the acros were nice. I got an incredible pair of true percs on that shipment (not "mated", I paired them). I'm going to try to breed them, since ORA or C-quest never produced any true percs with quality or coloration like the solomans.

www.inverts.com/images/percs.jpg

 

[jamesw]

Am I supposed to answer a question here? What's the question?

Cheers
James

 

[Chucker]

Your question, originally posted by SPC-

<strong>I understand that Walt Smith has a large on site aquaculter operation going for L/R and corals. Any first hand knowledge of how this operation is working Mary?</strong>

 

[MaryHM]

Yesterday I got my first ever shipment of aquacultured clams and acros from the Marshalls. Acro frags are nice- MUCH longer branches than solomon's, don't know what that means...

 

[Anonymous]

I hadn't heard anything about a Marshall's operation yet. Can you provide any more info? Who's doing it, is it direct or to wholesale only, web site (if they have one)?

 

[MaryHM]

They deal with wholesalers only. You'll find that to be the case with 99% of overseas distributors because of freight issues- more freight=cheaper freight rate. Hobbyists couldn't afford to bring out 1 box of stuff. It doesn't make sense to bring in anything less than 30 boxes from anywhere. No website that I'm familiar with.

 

[naesco]

So to you guys in the industry I have a question.
If offshore aquacultured coral frags are available (news to me) that are 'first class' than why bring in the 'wild' ones? Is it a size issue? Any other reason?

 

[JeremyR]

naesco: I don't bring in many wild acros.. when I do, it's usually because I'm looking for something to use as brood stock. But with alot of people, it is the size thing... the aren't patient enough to grow a small colony/large frag... OR they don't like the cement disk thing. Doesn't really matter to me.. SPS is such a niche market, I"m not losing all that much money not stocking a bunch of it... to make any real money in the market I live in with SPS, I'd have to really push mail order and that's not what I want to do.

 

[Carpentersreef]

I recently bought an aquacultured frag (hydnophora) from Indonesia through my LFS, and I asked if he could get more aquacultured pieces only, and he told me yes, but that color selection was very limited at this time.

Mitch

 

[MaryHM]

I'll back up what has already been said. It's a size, color, and mount appearance problem. Also, they tend to be a little more expensive than wild caught, and frankly hobbyists aren't willing to pay for them.

 

[Carpentersreef]

MOST hobbiests, Mary...MOST hobbiests

Mitch

 

[dmentnich]

First off- Dave welcome back, good to see you stayed.
Second I would like to start off by saying that I hate government interference in my life and would like to see things done to prevent making "banning" anything but the worst offenders necessary- transit survival problems, VERY specialized diets that CANNOT be provided for (not just because they are difficult) or threatened species. I particularly like the idea of special order species and yes, taxation. I realize that I am new to the hobby and do not know nearly as much as many of you who have been around for the last two decades, but I like to beleive that in almost all thing there is a happy middle ground (sound like a politician, don't I?)

I do like to think that special ordered fish will find a suitable home with knowledgeable hobbyists who can provide the care necessary to their survival. I also think that people who are wanting a shrimpfish or the likes should have access to them,(provided that they are not a threatened species) but not just by going into the LFS. If you are willing to put the money and time into keeping the fish and researching it then by all means, you should be able to acquire it if it is plentiful on the reefs. (with the above mentioned exceptions.)
I do NOT like the idea of taxation just for taxation sake with the funds going to general revenue so it would be nice to see it going to a special fund. (I know up here the chances of that are slim- they want everything in a "re-elect the Liberals slush fund,” but I can dream

) The taxation I speak of would apply to wild- caught specimens which are able to be tank-raised and which are readily available. This would have the effect of driving up the price so there was no longer a large price advantage to the hobbyist in buying wild animals and in an ideal world provide funds to monitor the reefs from the hobbyists who are putting pressure on them.
I am also not sure that there are enough captive- raised specimens available at this time to supply the industry and this would allow a fair chance to ensure the supply of clams etc... while giving incentive to "farmers."
Between this and "special order species" I believe that the strain on the reef could be reduced to the point where it is sustainable and still able to provide the countries which have them with revenue. Just as I do not disagree with harvesting trees- but I do with clear cutting forests, so to do I believe that harvesting coral and fish should be allowed, but allowed only when it is far under the threshold of sustainability.
Mary- I realize that voluntary taxation is not going to be accepted by the industry, but hey- its what I feel is best

.
Good-night all.

[ December 16, 2001: Message edited by: danny150 ]</p>

 

[MaryHM]

Gee Danny, I beat you to it by almost 2 years

Here's a quote from the letter I wrote the the United States Coral Reef Task Force in February of 2000:

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote

It is well known that certain species are not currently suitable for a captive environment. A few of these include specialized feeders, disease prone species, animals that quickly outgrow aquariums, and animals that need "something"- be it water conditions, diet, lighting, etc..- that we haven’t figured out yet and they slowly waste away. Many people say "ban all of those species". I disagree. Just a few short years ago the prevalent opinion was that small polyp stony corals (Acroporas, Pocilloporas, Stylophoras, Seriatoporas, etc...) were impossible to keep in captive conditions. Now they are not only kept, but they thrive and are able to be propagated!! These advances were made because scientists, industry professionals, and hobbyists kept trying new things until they determined what worked. If we had banned these animals 10 years ago, we never would have attained knowledge of these intricate species. Instead of banning the import of certain difficult species, I propose a special import tax be levied against them. A list of the "problem" species could be complied- animals on this list would be taxed upon import. This would raise the cost of the animals (making them less attractive to beginner hobbyists) but allow research by dedicated individuals to continue. A portion of the import tax could be designated to support that research. When the research progresses to a point that the species is deemed suitable for captivity, then the animal would be removed from the list and be readily available. If in the future it becomes necessary to help populate reefs with aquacultured species, this research would be invaluable.

I've become much more involved in industry issues since then, and upon reflection I do see a potential problem with this approach. I honestly think now that if something was put on the "tax it" list, that even after the needs of the animal were researched and the animal was deemed to be "aquarium friendly" that it would be practically impossible to get it back on the "untaxed" list. Come on, how often have you seen the government revoke a tax?

If you want to read the USCRTF letter in it's entirety, go to http://www.reefsource.com/uscrtf.htm

 

[dmentnich]

O.K. Mary- I have to admit im both shocked and impressed! (So much for no one in the industry wanting a voluntary tax.)
By two years you say! How the heck do you find that in the archives?!?
I stand corrected, but it would be nice to see something done about it. Thanks for the reply, it's nice to know I'm not alone here in the middle (not wanting very many species banned but not wishing to see the them easy to obtain for beginners.) Please excuse my not contributing to the lists (shrimp fish etc...) but I hardly even have any book knowledge about most of the species as I have never considered them for purchase and I feel that that end should be left to people who are better educated about the requirements and the impact of removing them. For now I will just keep wadding through the posts and trying to learn and decide for myself. (Reading and responding must take you 4 hours a day, do you have any time left to SELL what you import?

)

You mean to tell me that your government does not take the tax off once the taxes' origional purpose not longer applies? Ours ALWAYS does (and if ANY instance could be found I would list it for you.

)

I've got to say that this is an interesting forum and though I still do not know if it gives too much influence to the industry, not so much because it's you moderating it, but rather the whole industry is invited to give what facts they can find to try to argue with the facts the conversationalists find. ( I try not to accept even long studies if they go against what 50 smaller studies have found, but the one study could, conceivably, in this forum, be used to influence the opinions of 200 people.) Anyhow, maybe not perfect, but the best we have for someone like me to actually learn without hearing only one side. Thanks!

[ December 16, 2001: Message edited by: danny150 ]</p>

 

[Anonymous]

As Jeremy said the SPS market in the Boston area is unusally flat, we still have major market LFS's telling people they don't need MH on a 180 gallon tank. It has only been within the last 18 months that I've seen people really beginning to seek out and purchase the appropriate lighting for their aquariums.

Our SPS sales are almost 99% locally grown frags, to full size corals. I think this year we brought in maybe 4-6 wild colonies and really don't have the desire to even sustain that. Right now I'm trying to switch to more frag size corals as the medium to large sized corals sell, but a very slow turnover rate. If demand were to go up then I would turn to more farmed frags but would probably feel out more onshore farmers than the offshore ones due to shipping problems.


As far as mounting, oooh newsflash, sell them a tube of epoxy and tell them to mount the damn thing their way.