3 STRIKES, I'M OUT

[murrayjim]

naesco
I'm confused, what did Chris say that has you ready to "lurk"? As far as I can tell, all he has done is disagree with you and back it up with personal experience.

Strike3
I have no idea if Chris is a "yahoo" or not, but I didn't read anything that would suggest he is a "high and mighty know-it-all". I wonder why his number of posts would be an issue? Would you prefer no new members?

As for the tone on the message board, I haven't been around long enough to know if it is getting worse or better, but I must say I have seen a lot of posts that would be better left un-posted.

 

[jamesw]

We have a LOT of positive helpful posts on this board, and we have some negative ones too. I DON'T consider a post where someone disagrees w/ someone else as a negative post. I'm talking about personal attacks here.

My point is this: People always remember the "bad" things and they seldom remember the good. It's like that w/ everything. There is much more good info here and good ppl than bad.

Keep in mind, we have over 5,000 people on this board now (HOLY CRAP!) and that's AFTER we pruned off the "dead" accounts.

Happy Reefing,
James Wiseman

 

[aLittletank]

dont mind me, I was just checking to make sure I wasn't one of the 5000.

Allen

 

[murrayjim]

James
I agree, there is a lot of helpful information on this message board, and for the most part it is good. As a matter of fact I have made some changes to my tank based on some information I have read, And so far I'm happy I did. But you don't have to read very far into some threads, including this one, before you find people calling each other names.

Mabu
I think to flame people based on an excuse that it is a "life-and-death issue" is a little hypocritical. Lets face it if there was no aquarium hobby there would be a lot more healthy happy fish swimming in the ocean right now. I'm sure more then a few die during shipping to the distrubtors. Not to mention the damage to the reefs during collection.

 

[ophiuroid]

I agree a bit, but when we are talking about mistakes that can be prevented with a bit of reading and patience, and asking BEFORE doing, then I can see where people get frustrated when these animals die. The whole point is that so many fish do die in transport and capture; in many cases there is no need for them to die in our tanks if advice is sought and considered before the purchase is made. There are many, many fish that die from irresponsibility, and frankly, yeah, that makes me and many others pretty frustrated (eg the thread where 30 fish have now died). If you *are* going to take fish from reefs and kill many, if you *are* going to damage the reefs in doing so, the you sure as heck better do your part to at least consider that fish may have died because you failed to give it proper food, water conditions, or mixed it with a known aggressive species. Sure, tank size is, in some cases, a difficult issue because of variables unique to each situation- obviously many tangs, wrasses and angels will outgrow their tanks but may be OK for the moment. No fish really has all the space they once had when being confined in a tank. We all must accept that to be in this hobby. There are exceptions to every 'rule' on compatibility, etc...of course...and there is a calculated risk in some iffy cases, but for the most part people do need to take responsibility so that they do not feel they can go and do whatever the heck they want again. For some, this fact needs to be made pretty clear through folks on this board with more experience, and what seems to be the obvious may need to be pointed out gently- which is often missing- (eg, you'll *eventually* need a bigger tank, or you should have a back up tank to put that animal in if it doesn't work out, keep a close eye on those guys....) or perhaps really bluntly (your tank is just too small, take him back to the LFS). I think name calling and cursing are juvenile, strong words and disagreements may be necessary, and the health of the animals needs to be a prime issue once it is clearly in our hands.
I disagree about the hypocritical aspect of demanding we take care of the animals in our direct care; it is hypocritical to complain about conditions in an LFS when we make no additional effort to learn about our animals, and provide them with the best possible care...this is unfortunately all too common. IMO, the same people who are frustrated about animals in our tanks, are concerned about animals in the LFS, and concerned about animals captured via poor techniques from the oceans and are strong supporters of captive prop. animals. They are not hypocritical.

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Brittlestars!! http://home.att.net/~ophiuroid
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[SPC]

Ben, you said " if you have nothing nice (or educational) to say say nothing at all". What is your definition of nice? Educational?
Dave, you said "why can't we all just get along", my answer to this is because their are people who post here that are only concerned with their little tank and don't give a damn about the big picture. My take on what was intended to be the philosophy of this board is the ethical and humane treatment of marine life through education, not the hell with all the experts and experienced hobbiest my way is best. What I have noticed is when the people who believe this first philosophy have someone disagree with them, a mature and intellegent response is given. But disagree with the other group and the thread degrades to " why do people have to flame each other just because they have a differen't opinion".
Murrayjim, you said "I'm confused, what did chris say that got you to lurk", If you read the post that naesco was referring to you will see that chris called him a fool. Then you say in your next post "but you don't have to read very far into some threads, including this one, before you find people calling each other names". I am just curious what your point is?
My question to all is why have this board at all if we are going to condone practices that have been proven to fail (IN THE LONG RUN) by experienced hobbiest, and I am not talking about bare bottom tanks and bio balls here. I can go to my LFS and here how its ok to keep a Trigger in a 37 gallon tank because so and so did it.
Steve

 

[Alice]

Good points, Lefty.

I started on the internet with Aqualink back in the fire-proof suit days and it's a good thing I had a suit or I'd be back at the LFS or reading outdated books (you know, the ones where all the kids have long hair and wear striped turtlenecks, lol) where UGF was still ruling the day.

What we have to keep in mind is that this board looms large on internet searches for SW/reef tank info. Many beginners register here. You can't educate them if you can't keep them......honey works better than vinegar. If they won't listen to the info that is presented, that's another matter and really beyond the board's control but everyone learns more in an atmosphere that is conducive to learning rather than name-calling.

Just my $.02

~Alice

 

[murrayjim]

SPC
Sorry you missed the point. Read it again, or email me I'll try and explain it to you. As far as the "fool" statement, I think Chris made a good piont but could have done it without the name calling...Hmmm..maybe that's the point.

ophiuroid
It is frustrating to see someone kill 30 fish, but it is still no reason to flame. Do you think flaming is going to change someone's mind? I think you and I are in agreement on this issue. However, I do think getting outraged at some guy killng 30 fish and show no outrage at an industry where at least 100 times that amount perish is hypocritical. To rationlize the death and destruction away by saying at least the survivors should be well cared for is, IMO, hypocritical.
Another note- I have been in this hobby for two years now and have just recently found this board and all of the info contained here. From personal experience, I know that there are MANY people working in fish shops that don't have a clue what they are talking about. I am sure that in many instances, fish deaths can be chalked up to wrong information from the salesperson who are more concerned with making money than researching correct info. I have had so many people tell me info about fish that I know is incorrect, and if I wasn't informed myself and had followed their instructions I would have had many more fish dead. IMO there are probably many people out there who are trying to get informed about fish before they put them into their tanks but are falling victim to ignorant sales people.

 

[SPC]

Lefty and Alice, very good posts by both of you and I agree 100% thats what we should try to achieve. Now I guess the question is realistically can this be achieved? I know in the sump Lefty I see name calling, even with mature intelligent posters. And Alice, the Reef Tank board is an outstanding board but to be fare it is dominated by experienced, mature hobbiest, the ratio as compared to this board is not even close. Any comments?
Steve

 

[ging]

Naesco,
I am a newbie and I have always listened to your advice and followed it. I can say without a doubt that my tank is successful and slowly growing up to be a beautiful tank because of the experience of the reefers that help me when I need them. I do have small problems from time to time and feel safe that you and other experienced reefers are there to help me, and remind me to step back, relax and things will work themselves out. I find it very sad that the "old school" board members are being pushed out by the newest members with attitude. I wish you would reconsider coming back because the one's that need and use your advice will have lost a great resource and mentor.

ging

 

[Speed]

I'm new to this board and I don't want to step on anyone's toes(or crush any egos) but I would like to say that there is still a great deal to learn about reef systems. Some of this is learned from listening to others, some from trial and error, and some from trying to make the best of a situation that we got ourselves into. I particullary like the thread about the Moorish Idol a couple of days back(a lot to be learned from the experience of others). My point is that although we should point out that what is being done has not proven to be a wise course of action by others who have tried we still have an obligation to help this individual out of the situation he is now in with the least amount of loss of livestock as possible.
While I am new to this board let me point out that I have been doing salt water for 37 Years (that's right, back to the time when you went to the ocean for sal water). In the years a lot of people have found ways to keep many spicies alive in tanks that were thought to be impossible to keep, many times due to their ignorance that it was impossible to keep these species.(information was very scarce and we did not have places like this board to share information) Offering guidance for the situation offers the posibility that something new might be learned by all as one of us reefers tries to make the best of a mistake or bad situation.
Once again I'm not trying to be critical but just sharing my opinion.

 

[Lefty1]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SPC:
<STRONG>Lefty and Alice, very good posts by both of you and I agree 100% thats what we should try to achieve. Now I guess the question is realistically can this be achieved? I know in the sump Lefty I see name calling, even with mature intelligent posters. And Alice, the Reef Tank board is an outstanding board but to be fare it is dominated by experienced, mature hobbiest, the ratio as compared to this board is not even close. Any comments?
Steve</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It can be achieved only as much as we are willing to make it happen. Not everyone will do it, and people will make mistakes and write mean stuff. Don't make it worse. Say what you have to say without attacking the other person. Sure there is name calling in the sump, but I think if you look you will see people calling each other on it without making it worse & I think you will also see a lot of apologies for such behavior. We all want to keep talking, both here and in the sump, so we have to make an effort to get our points across in non inflammatory ways. If enough of us try it can become the way people here treat each other.

RR

 

[william snyder]

Naesco,

I haven't followed the thread that caused this tiff, but I have to tell you, I always read your responses and the few times I was in trouble I valued your input. I suggest that you remain active and don't read any posts that cause you angst. Life is way to short to aggravate.

 

[reefworm]

naesco,
Just in case you're still looking in on the thread...

I can understand your frustration, but please don't allow, shall we say, less than cordial postings to prevent you from sharing your valuable and appreciated knowledge with us. You've always given reasoned, thoughtful advice based on experience. If the life-cycle of an internet board that was posted earlier is correct, then we need you to help us move reefs.org in a healthy direction. If we don't remain to try to influence the nature of posting on this board, then we abandon the ground to those who pushed you away.

In the words of Sting, from Englishman in New York,[Nothing Like the Sun] "If manners maketh man as someone said, he's the hero of the day. It takes a man to suffer ignorance and smile. Be yourself, no matter what they say.... Confront your enemies. Avoid them when you can. A gentleman will walk, but never run."

I hope I haven't gotten too maudlin, but I do hope you see my point, and return. Many of us will welcome it.

regards,
rw

[ July 26, 2001: Message edited by: reefworm ]

 

[esmithiii]

Neasco, SPC:

There is alot that can be said for HOW you say something. Keep in mind that this board was created to share information, not to debate ethics/morality. I get snappy when I see people get "holier than thou" or when people assume that their opinion is automatically superior to others.

I truly appreciate both of your input when it comes to sharing information. Tell me ONCE that my tank is too small for a tang, great. Repeat it over and over in subsequent replies and bring in ethics, argue the point repeatedly and you can only expect some harsh responses.

Once again I will repeat: THIS BOARD IS FOR SHARING INFORMATION, NOT FOR FURTHURING YOUR BELIEFS ON ETHICAL REEF KEEPING. IF YOU WANT TO TALK ETHICS, GO TO THE SUMP!

As for leaving, I hope you don't leave. Your expertise is valuable to others, and to me.

 

[ophiuroid]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by murrayjim:
<STRONG>
ophiuroid
It is frustrating to see someone kill 30 fish, but it is still no reason to flame. Do you think flaming is going to change someone's mind? I think you and I are in agreement on this issue. However, I do think getting outraged at some guy killng 30 fish and show no outrage at an industry where at least 100 times that amount perish is hypocritical. To rationlize the death and destruction away by saying at least the survivors should be well cared for is, IMO, hypocritical.
</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am not sure you meant anything personal by this, but I will explain myself, so as not to be misunderstood.

I am outraged when 30 fish die needlessly in a tank (not from a major random tank crash by the way, but from pure irresponsibility). I am outraged when improper holding facilities/capture techniques/and all aspects related to the supply of these animals result in deaths because these are wild animals taken from a delicate and threatened ecosystem (my opinions on whether many fish/corals should be available at all are probably not popular). These are not, IMO, acceptable losses, and further research into captive prop animals or pressure to improve the statistics on capture should be considered. But we want relatively low cost fish, so the market will no doubt prevail, and many can continue to live in their little world, oblivious to the losses.

Did I ever say that it was OK for so many animals to die in this hobby (in supply) but not in our tanks? I said that it is hypocritical to condemn LFS shops as disease ridden money hungry uninformed SOBs on this board (as so many happily do) and then the very same folks take home animals (eg, often the cheaper, wild caught clowns instead of tank raised- want to save money as much as the LFS wants to make it) and feed them the wrong thing, house them in the wrong tanks with fish that are not proper co-inhabitants and they end up similarly diseased or killed. I am outraged when animals needlessly die, in collecting, in shipping, in the LFS and in our tanks, if no effort was made to improve basic conditions for them. I do not *ever* rationalize the loss of the others...but I will take responsibility for those that are lucky enough to survive, and value them highly because they are one survivor from the hundreds taken. I think the fact that so many do die makes taking care of them in our tanks an even greater responsibility.

It is also hypocritical to write off the loss of 30 fish as part of the learning curve and be outraged over collecting losses. These are 30 more fish that made it through many, many fiery hoops only to die, most likely, needlessly. A bit of reading, consulting this board, or just pure patience, would have and does save many fish.

If you read the post in question, I think you will see that a number of people attempted to calmly help the person (actually it was a remarkable calm thread considering the topic...I would say that most of us practically begged him)...and it was only after the poster repeatedly refused to answer relevant questions or take any responsibility (which we all must) and 'signed off' that I lost my temper...and frankly, my 'flame' post was nothing like some of the juvenile exchanges on this board. It was less of a flame than a really, really *blunt* answer to his questions after others failed. I apologize for that, but I am absolutely serious about the message.

I agree with everyone and do not think that the standard "flame" on this board - which involves words like "idiot and fool" and random curses is in any way beneficial.

 

[murrayjim]

I meant nothing personal at all by my post, as a matter of fact I didn't even read the "fish holicost" thread. I only made reference to it because you mentioned the outrage over it. I think you and I agree almost 100%. My point is when people take the moral high ground some times they get tunnel vision. They see a thread and judge and attack. They forget that every one fish in their tank, at least 10 died (I think a fair estimate) If these are unacceptable losses, then why continue in the hobby. If the death of thirty fish is such an outrage shouldn't we be more outraged by the hobby itself? Why not lobby to put an end to the destruction of a threatened ecosystem? That's too hard not to mention no fun. The "fish killer" is an easier target or the guy with the Tang in a less then ocean size tank, or even the guy with the anenome.

We all accept the "unacceptable losses" every time we buy a new fish, coral or invert. It would be hard for me to rip anyone a new one for killing fish as long as I'm a hobbist, that would be.... well....hypocritical.
Advise without judgement might be better.

BTW I enjoyed reading your last post and agree that certain fish/corals should not be made available.

 

[Lefty1]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SPC:
<STRONG>
My question to all is why have this board at all if we are going to condone practices that have been proven to fail (IN THE LONG RUN) by experienced hobbiest, and I am not talking about bare bottom tanks and bio balls here. I can go to my LFS and here how its ok to keep a Trigger in a 37 gallon tank because so and so did it.
Steve</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I think what may be missing is some humility when giving out advice. Sometimes we come off a little haughty, like we have the only right answer and people need to believe us because we are right. This only leads to fighting as people dig in and defend what they wrote, instead of listening to each other.
This board exists for us to share information, not for us to lay down the law about how to keep reef tanks. If we get all dogmatic, we stifle the growth of the hobby, and we make people turn away from this board and the information available here. People do things different ways, those ways change, and we may be wrong. By all means don't condone practices you don't agree with, just make an effort not to belittle the person you are disagreeing with.
If we want people to do it like we do, we need to present the information in a way they will listen to. So, I think we should all relax, let go of the "life and death" tenor of some conversations, listen to what each other has to say, write responses with the feeling that we may be wrong, and be ready to agree to disagree.

RR

 

[murrayjim]

ophiuroid
Well said..

 

[EmilyB]

WOW.

I'm really happy that you "experts" found the way so easily, and expect no mistakes before others find their way here.