series 1 unsuitable species butterflyfish
- Thread starter naesco
- Start date
I hope everyone has taken a look at the picures and comments of the butterfly fish imported by wholesalers that we are talking about here as noted in www.wetwebmedia.com/poorchaetodons.htm
If you have not please do so now.
Robert Fenner in the above website stated
"90 some percent of these species are dead within a month of wild collection"
Here is his intro to the list we are talking about.
Fenner
"Here are my opinions about the chaetodonts after handling tens of thousands over the last thirty years. No apology or vain attempt at completeness is offered. I know there is going to be no absolute agreement on my assessments, but I stand by them- they are borne out of my own obervations of many individuals of all sizes from many points of origin"
There are hundreds and hundreds of butterflyfish that we can keep. It will not harm us toban the few on the list beautiful though they may be,
they do not live. We must choose others that do.
If you have not please do so now.
Robert Fenner in the above website stated
"90 some percent of these species are dead within a month of wild collection"
Here is his intro to the list we are talking about.
Fenner
"Here are my opinions about the chaetodonts after handling tens of thousands over the last thirty years. No apology or vain attempt at completeness is offered. I know there is going to be no absolute agreement on my assessments, but I stand by them- they are borne out of my own obervations of many individuals of all sizes from many points of origin"
There are hundreds and hundreds of butterflyfish that we can keep. It will not harm us toban the few on the list beautiful though they may be,
they do not live. We must choose others that do.
OK, here is the list from Fenner's site. I have seen every one of those butterflies regularly imported at other wholesalers. Naesco, I really want to commend you on doing some excellent work for this whole discussion!! Bravo!!
My comments are in BOLD (I just figured out how to use that feature and am enjoying myself! ). I'm noting species that aren't on Tullock's list so you can see what is being added. We need to pry a little deeper into the ones that have no reason given for poor survival.
Chaetodon adiergastos Seale 1910, the Panda Butterflyfish. Far west tropical Pacific in distribution. A coral polyp plus other invertebrate feeder. This one wasn't on Tullock's list. I wonder what "other invertebrate feeder" means???
Chaetodon aureofasciatus Macleav 1878, the Golden-Striped Butterflyfish. Another coral polyp feeder.
Chaetodon austriacus Never lives in captivity, unlike so many of the other fishes hailing from this area. A feeder on live corals, anemones and snail eggs.
Chaetodon baronessa Cuvier 1831, the Eastern Triangular or Baroness Butterflyfish. this fish is a strict feeder on coral polyps.
Chaetodon bennetti Bennett's Butterflyfish. . Most all food consists of coral polyps.
Chaetodon capistratus A broad feeding strategy, but still does poorly in adapting to captive conditions. This one isn't on Tullock's list either. I think we need to research this one a little more- if it has a broad feeding strategy, what's causing the high mortalities???
Chaetdodon flavirostris Usually shy and non-feeding. Eats coral polyps, other bottom-dwelling invertebrates and algae in the wild. . Way too often sold to the hobby as juveniles... they don't live. This one isn't on Tullock's list either.
Chaetodon humeralis Found all along the tropical east Pacific coast of Central America up into the Mar de Cortez. No reason given for poor survival. Not on Tullock's list. Keep in mind that VERY FEW animals are imported from the Sea of Cortez, so it would fall into a rarely imported category
Chaetodon larvatus Only eats acroporid coral polyps...
Chaetodon lineolatus A beauty that eats corals, anemones, much of all else, but doesn't live. Not on Tullock's list
Chaetodon lunulatus Quoy & Gaimard 1824, the Redfin Butterflyfish. Not on Tullock's list. No reason given for poor survival
Chaetodon melapterus this is another "principally coral polyp feeder".
Chaetodon meyeri Only eats coral polyps
Chaetodon ocellatus Not on Tullock's list. No reason given for poor survival
Chaetodon octofasciatus this is a strict feeder on coral polyps... rarely lives more than a few days.
Chaetodon ornatissimus Yet another obligate corallivore.
Chaetodon oxycephalus Not on Tullock's list. No reason given for poor survival
Chaetodon pelewensis Not on Tullock's list. No reason given for poor survival
Chaetodon plebius No reason given for poor survival
Chaetodon quadrimaculatus A few specimens live and live, most die "mysteriously" in aquarium conditions. In the wild, this species feeds principally on Pocillopora coral polyps.
Chaetodon rainfordi Not on Tullock's list. No reason given for poor survival
Chaetodon reticulatus dismal survival records in captivity for this coral polyp eater. Not on Tullock's list. No reason given for poor survival
Chaetodon speculum A shy species that lives in coral rich areas where it feeds on same and other benthic invertebrates.
Chaetodon semeion Not on Tullock's list. No reason given for poor survival
Chaetodon striatus Not on Tullock's list. No reason given for poor survival
Chaetodon triangulum feeding (coral polyps)
Chaetodon trifascialis Almost exclusively lives on eating Acroporid polyps.
Chaetodon trifasciatus this is primarily a coral polyp feeder.
Chaetodon vagabundus In the wild feeds on anemones, coral polyps, worms and algae. Not on Tullock's list.
Chaetodon zanzibariensis Coral feeder. Not on Tullock's list. No reason given for poor survival
[ December 13, 2001: Message edited by: MaryHM ]</p>
My comments are in BOLD (I just figured out how to use that feature and am enjoying myself! ). I'm noting species that aren't on Tullock's list so you can see what is being added. We need to pry a little deeper into the ones that have no reason given for poor survival.
Chaetodon adiergastos Seale 1910, the Panda Butterflyfish. Far west tropical Pacific in distribution. A coral polyp plus other invertebrate feeder. This one wasn't on Tullock's list. I wonder what "other invertebrate feeder" means???
Chaetodon aureofasciatus Macleav 1878, the Golden-Striped Butterflyfish. Another coral polyp feeder.
Chaetodon austriacus Never lives in captivity, unlike so many of the other fishes hailing from this area. A feeder on live corals, anemones and snail eggs.
Chaetodon baronessa Cuvier 1831, the Eastern Triangular or Baroness Butterflyfish. this fish is a strict feeder on coral polyps.
Chaetodon bennetti Bennett's Butterflyfish. . Most all food consists of coral polyps.
Chaetodon capistratus A broad feeding strategy, but still does poorly in adapting to captive conditions. This one isn't on Tullock's list either. I think we need to research this one a little more- if it has a broad feeding strategy, what's causing the high mortalities???
Chaetdodon flavirostris Usually shy and non-feeding. Eats coral polyps, other bottom-dwelling invertebrates and algae in the wild. . Way too often sold to the hobby as juveniles... they don't live. This one isn't on Tullock's list either.
Chaetodon humeralis Found all along the tropical east Pacific coast of Central America up into the Mar de Cortez. No reason given for poor survival. Not on Tullock's list. Keep in mind that VERY FEW animals are imported from the Sea of Cortez, so it would fall into a rarely imported category
Chaetodon larvatus Only eats acroporid coral polyps...
Chaetodon lineolatus A beauty that eats corals, anemones, much of all else, but doesn't live. Not on Tullock's list
Chaetodon lunulatus Quoy & Gaimard 1824, the Redfin Butterflyfish. Not on Tullock's list. No reason given for poor survival
Chaetodon melapterus this is another "principally coral polyp feeder".
Chaetodon meyeri Only eats coral polyps
Chaetodon ocellatus Not on Tullock's list. No reason given for poor survival
Chaetodon octofasciatus this is a strict feeder on coral polyps... rarely lives more than a few days.
Chaetodon ornatissimus Yet another obligate corallivore.
Chaetodon oxycephalus Not on Tullock's list. No reason given for poor survival
Chaetodon pelewensis Not on Tullock's list. No reason given for poor survival
Chaetodon plebius No reason given for poor survival
Chaetodon quadrimaculatus A few specimens live and live, most die "mysteriously" in aquarium conditions. In the wild, this species feeds principally on Pocillopora coral polyps.
Chaetodon rainfordi Not on Tullock's list. No reason given for poor survival
Chaetodon reticulatus dismal survival records in captivity for this coral polyp eater. Not on Tullock's list. No reason given for poor survival
Chaetodon speculum A shy species that lives in coral rich areas where it feeds on same and other benthic invertebrates.
Chaetodon semeion Not on Tullock's list. No reason given for poor survival
Chaetodon striatus Not on Tullock's list. No reason given for poor survival
Chaetodon triangulum feeding (coral polyps)
Chaetodon trifascialis Almost exclusively lives on eating Acroporid polyps.
Chaetodon trifasciatus this is primarily a coral polyp feeder.
Chaetodon vagabundus In the wild feeds on anemones, coral polyps, worms and algae. Not on Tullock's list.
Chaetodon zanzibariensis Coral feeder. Not on Tullock's list. No reason given for poor survival
[ December 13, 2001: Message edited by: MaryHM ]</p>
lol- I accidentally posted the original thing to the wrong thread, and when I copied and pasted it wouldn't show the bold. So I had to go back and fix it all again. GRRRR!
Anywho, to do bold just type a [ b ] before what you want bolded, except don't put the space between them, and a [ / b ]- after it.
Anywho, to do bold just type a [ b ] before what you want bolded, except don't put the space between them, and a [ / b ]- after it.
Mary, I'll give you a possible explanation for poor survival of those species that none was given before:
1: Just like the current flame angel (centropyge loriculus) problem, possible use of cyanide.
2: Improper acclimation procedures to different depths. Some collectors pierce the swimbladders in order to prevent the fish from exploding from the bends, as a result of being brought up from over 40ft below. Just as a human must worry about the bends, fish can get it as well. Some collectors pierce the swimbladders which can lead to internal organ damage, inability of fish to regulate self in water, or infections from the procedure.
[ December 13, 2001: Message edited by: tazdevil ]</p>
1: Just like the current flame angel (centropyge loriculus) problem, possible use of cyanide.
2: Improper acclimation procedures to different depths. Some collectors pierce the swimbladders in order to prevent the fish from exploding from the bends, as a result of being brought up from over 40ft below. Just as a human must worry about the bends, fish can get it as well. Some collectors pierce the swimbladders which can lead to internal organ damage, inability of fish to regulate self in water, or infections from the procedure.
[ December 13, 2001: Message edited by: tazdevil ]</p>
I was using them as an example only in relation to those types of butterfly's that are "unknown" as far as their reasons for high mortality in captivity. I know this is supposed to be about chaetodon, but, as to your response about the flame's, well, there has been a recently high mortality rate among flame angels, that had "no definite reason yet" as far as there mortality. According to scott michaels pocket handbook, cyanide use is a possible factor. BTW, it seems that the problem with the obligate corallivors/sponge only eaters could be solved rather easily by having a frozen formula consisting of that. I imagine a company could continually frag/breed corals/sponges for this purpose, and by fragging instead of wild collecting, minimal if any impact on the reefs. This would seem to solve the problem, is it being done?
[ December 13, 2001: Message edited by: tazdevil ]</p>
[ December 13, 2001: Message edited by: tazdevil ]</p>
I'm not sure if that would work or not. Most butterflies are pretty shy by nature and may not readily accept a frozen food, even if it is the natural form of what they eat. Another problem with that is that many fish only eat one type of SPS or sponge or similar. That would definitely cause a problem.
Scott Michael states that the red fin butterflyfish is an extremely specialized feeder. It feeds only on stoney coral polyps.
All the butterflyfish on the list need either polyps or sponge to survive.
Reefers have no interest in these fish because they will eat all their coral.
Fish only guys can't keep them because they can't provide the polyps they need.
Granted, if you were determined enough and could feed live sponge or polyps or if you have a huge tank some of these might survive.
All the butterflyfish on the list need either polyps or sponge to survive.
Reefers have no interest in these fish because they will eat all their coral.
Fish only guys can't keep them because they can't provide the polyps they need.
Granted, if you were determined enough and could feed live sponge or polyps or if you have a huge tank some of these might survive.
FWIW, my butterfly experience is limited, as I have generally chosen to avoid them. Have seen people do well with a few on tullocks good list.. but in general I just don't offer them.
As for the flame.. I think they are rarer in hawaii, most for trade are xmas, cooks, and marshall.. the ones I've been told were marshall I have had very good luck with.. I don't buy the cooks/xmas ones anymore do to poor luck.
As for the flame.. I think they are rarer in hawaii, most for trade are xmas, cooks, and marshall.. the ones I've been told were marshall I have had very good luck with.. I don't buy the cooks/xmas ones anymore do to poor luck.
I guess the "too expensive to provide food for" must fall under "people who do not keep a reef and a FOWLR" subsection...
We basically have to flush excess coral propagation in our city... that alone is a crime. It is easy to feed to coral eating fish in FOWLR tank, if you have the source six feet away.
I guess I don't feel a lot of people have ever been prepared to succeed with some fish species - if "too expensive to provide food for" is a consideration - then it should be made known.
We basically have to flush excess coral propagation in our city... that alone is a crime. It is easy to feed to coral eating fish in FOWLR tank, if you have the source six feet away.
I guess I don't feel a lot of people have ever been prepared to succeed with some fish species - if "too expensive to provide food for" is a consideration - then it should be made known.
I rarely import butterflyfish but do have a little experience with them. I have had good success(eating dry food for 6 weeks) with half a dozen different species from the Solomons and Vanuatu. I think the secret is to know which species do better in captivity and also where they are from.
As far as Flame Angels, stay away from Christmas Islands. I have had best success with flames from Vanuatu and Marshalls. These are very hardy and eat well, the ones from the Marshalls tend to be more agressive.
Cheers,
Tim
As far as Flame Angels, stay away from Christmas Islands. I have had best success with flames from Vanuatu and Marshalls. These are very hardy and eat well, the ones from the Marshalls tend to be more agressive.
Cheers,
Tim
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