Mary , Why is it that the minimums on "tank raised" from C-Quest and Ora is so huge? Five thousand dollars will buy a lot of wild fish!
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Dexter Forum
American Marinelife Dealers Association
- Thread starter Kalkbreath
- Start date
AMDA at www.amdareef.com lists their standards.
It was interesting to note that the standard on collector, wholesaler and LFS is that they will try to not purchase marine specimens shown to not survive captivity unless for research.
Further the standards state that these same people should purchase aquacultured over wild wherever available.
Mary I see that you are on the Board of AMDA. Does the Board or the AMDA accept our impossible to keep list as presented?
There needs to be some sort of sanctions against those collectors, wholesalers and LFS who are not certifed by the AMDA or other appropriate organization and who continue to collect import and sell these species except for research.
Any ideas?
[ January 09, 2002: Message edited by: naesco ]</p>
It was interesting to note that the standard on collector, wholesaler and LFS is that they will try to not purchase marine specimens shown to not survive captivity unless for research.
Further the standards state that these same people should purchase aquacultured over wild wherever available.
Mary I see that you are on the Board of AMDA. Does the Board or the AMDA accept our impossible to keep list as presented?
There needs to be some sort of sanctions against those collectors, wholesalers and LFS who are not certifed by the AMDA or other appropriate organization and who continue to collect import and sell these species except for research.
Any ideas?
[ January 09, 2002: Message edited by: naesco ]</p>
Anemone
You can flame me all you want, it really has no effect.
If it is neccesary I will dig through the threads and get the direct qoute where I directly asked Mary if she would stop importing corals that are so easily fragged, her response was no that these corals are fast growing and very sustainable.
I also asked why she would not stop importing clown fish. Her response was that she has wild caught species and she would not want to mix aquacultured and wild. She also said there were not enough variety of tank raised. As of last year C quest offered 11 species of clown fish with more to come.
I fail to see how these explainations qualify as "will try" and "when possible"
If wholesalers followed these standards we would not be having these debates.
It is nice of you to keep flaming me on Mary's behalf.
You can flame me all you want, it really has no effect.
If it is neccesary I will dig through the threads and get the direct qoute where I directly asked Mary if she would stop importing corals that are so easily fragged, her response was no that these corals are fast growing and very sustainable.
I also asked why she would not stop importing clown fish. Her response was that she has wild caught species and she would not want to mix aquacultured and wild. She also said there were not enough variety of tank raised. As of last year C quest offered 11 species of clown fish with more to come.
I fail to see how these explainations qualify as "will try" and "when possible"
If wholesalers followed these standards we would not be having these debates.
It is nice of you to keep flaming me on Mary's behalf.
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Fishaholic:
<strong>If it is neccesary I will dig through the threads and get the direct qoute where I directly asked Mary if she would stop importing corals that are so easily fragged, her response was no that these corals are fast growing and very sustainable.
I also asked why she would not stop importing clown fish. Her response was that she has wild caught species and she would not want to mix aquacultured and wild. She also said there were not enough variety of tank raised. As of last year C quest offered 11 species of clown fish with more to come.
I fail to see how these explainations qualify as "will try" and "when possible"</strong><hr></blockquote>
I wouldn't want you to hurt yourself editing out the parts you don't like, so I'll quote it for you.
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by MaryHM
<strong>I order invertebrates from ORA. In fact, I'm working with them on marketing one of their new products. BTW, even though ORA is afflilated with Harbor Branch, they are a FOR PROFIT business. That makes them industry. I have recently starting doing orders from a farm in the Marshall Islands that propagates numerous corals and clams. I order aquacultured corals from the Solomon Islands everytime I place an order with that export facility. We are also in talks with an Australian seahorse breeding facility and plan to start distributing their animals within 3 months. We are in the beginning stages of talks to start our coral propagation farm in Fiji. As this is quite a large undertaking, and is going to require a lot of capital to get started, it will probably be about a year before we actually start propagating- I'm hoping sooner, but it all depends on the economy.
As far as purchasing captive bred fish, I have 3 problems:
1. My fish system is pretty small and ORA and C-quest have quite large minimums.
2. Mixing wild fish with captive bred fish is a bad combination. The captives invaribly break down with some kind of disease they aren't resistant to. Ask the breeders- they even say it's a bad idea. We have an addition to our fish room that we are going to set up a separate system in just for captive breds. That will probably happen next fall.
3. The variety is bad. There is no way that a wholesale company could purchase solely captive bred fish and/or corals and still stay in business.
I have not built my greenhouses yet, as we have been working on finishing our fish building. I am propagating 3 species of xenia, one on a commercial level (we have discontinued importing that species as a result). We also started our Coral Polyp Rescue program a couple of months ago and have numerous frags in the grow out stage and are fragging more every week. We have a graduate student in coral reef ecology that is working on this for us. </strong><hr></blockquote>
I think reading what Mary actually said, rather than relying on your rendition, shows that she really is complying with "will try" and "when possible."
11 species of clown does not a business make. What Mary said (since you don't seem to be able to read her words that well) is that putting captive bred fish in with wild caught causes the captive bred to break down. She has a small fish system that would expose captive bred fish to wild caught fish parasites and disease in the system (not neccessarily the same species of fish!). She's even planning on expanding so that she can have a "captive only" section - gee, sounds like "will try" to me.
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Fishaholic:
<strong>It is nice of you to keep flaming me on Mary's behalf.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Not really on Mary's behalf - I just hate to see you continually try and spread your one-sided view of the world and slam an "industry" person who really seems to be trying and make a difference. Many people on this board believe in conservation efforts, captive propagation, and selective species bans (actually, I can think of only one person who doesn't seem to fit that profile), and they all seem to be able to express their opinions in a rational manner and try to move the discussion forward. Only two people (you being one), seem to want to make this a snide, condescending, "you're-a-fool-if-you-don't-see-it-my-way" insult exchange.
Do you have an ulterior motive for sidetracking every discussion?
To everyone else, I apologize for becoming part of his sidetracking - I JUST CAN'T TAKE THIS &^*% ANY MORE.
Kevin
[ January 09, 2002: Message edited by: Anemone ]</p>
<strong>If it is neccesary I will dig through the threads and get the direct qoute where I directly asked Mary if she would stop importing corals that are so easily fragged, her response was no that these corals are fast growing and very sustainable.
I also asked why she would not stop importing clown fish. Her response was that she has wild caught species and she would not want to mix aquacultured and wild. She also said there were not enough variety of tank raised. As of last year C quest offered 11 species of clown fish with more to come.
I fail to see how these explainations qualify as "will try" and "when possible"</strong><hr></blockquote>
I wouldn't want you to hurt yourself editing out the parts you don't like, so I'll quote it for you.
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by MaryHM
<strong>I order invertebrates from ORA. In fact, I'm working with them on marketing one of their new products. BTW, even though ORA is afflilated with Harbor Branch, they are a FOR PROFIT business. That makes them industry. I have recently starting doing orders from a farm in the Marshall Islands that propagates numerous corals and clams. I order aquacultured corals from the Solomon Islands everytime I place an order with that export facility. We are also in talks with an Australian seahorse breeding facility and plan to start distributing their animals within 3 months. We are in the beginning stages of talks to start our coral propagation farm in Fiji. As this is quite a large undertaking, and is going to require a lot of capital to get started, it will probably be about a year before we actually start propagating- I'm hoping sooner, but it all depends on the economy.
As far as purchasing captive bred fish, I have 3 problems:
1. My fish system is pretty small and ORA and C-quest have quite large minimums.
2. Mixing wild fish with captive bred fish is a bad combination. The captives invaribly break down with some kind of disease they aren't resistant to. Ask the breeders- they even say it's a bad idea. We have an addition to our fish room that we are going to set up a separate system in just for captive breds. That will probably happen next fall.
3. The variety is bad. There is no way that a wholesale company could purchase solely captive bred fish and/or corals and still stay in business.
I have not built my greenhouses yet, as we have been working on finishing our fish building. I am propagating 3 species of xenia, one on a commercial level (we have discontinued importing that species as a result). We also started our Coral Polyp Rescue program a couple of months ago and have numerous frags in the grow out stage and are fragging more every week. We have a graduate student in coral reef ecology that is working on this for us. </strong><hr></blockquote>
I think reading what Mary actually said, rather than relying on your rendition, shows that she really is complying with "will try" and "when possible."
11 species of clown does not a business make. What Mary said (since you don't seem to be able to read her words that well) is that putting captive bred fish in with wild caught causes the captive bred to break down. She has a small fish system that would expose captive bred fish to wild caught fish parasites and disease in the system (not neccessarily the same species of fish!). She's even planning on expanding so that she can have a "captive only" section - gee, sounds like "will try" to me.
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Fishaholic:
<strong>It is nice of you to keep flaming me on Mary's behalf.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Not really on Mary's behalf - I just hate to see you continually try and spread your one-sided view of the world and slam an "industry" person who really seems to be trying and make a difference. Many people on this board believe in conservation efforts, captive propagation, and selective species bans (actually, I can think of only one person who doesn't seem to fit that profile), and they all seem to be able to express their opinions in a rational manner and try to move the discussion forward. Only two people (you being one), seem to want to make this a snide, condescending, "you're-a-fool-if-you-don't-see-it-my-way" insult exchange.
Do you have an ulterior motive for sidetracking every discussion?
To everyone else, I apologize for becoming part of his sidetracking - I JUST CAN'T TAKE THIS &^*% ANY MORE.
Kevin
[ January 09, 2002: Message edited by: Anemone ]</p>
The point fishaholic is that ORA has chosen to do business in such a manner that major wholesalers can't sell their fish and make any money, because they sell to us shops at X rate, and whoelsalers have to buy an enormous amount of fish to get a better rate, and this cost is prohibitive. Also, I believe it is to protect their largest account so that the local pet superstore can sell them for 10 bucks and not be competed with. The volume they turnover is far greater than the independent LFS, and I've seen whole tanks of them dead/dying at these places. Great advertising for captive bred fish.. a large % die before reaching homes due to superstore negligence.
Having said that, I still sell ORA fish as it is the best CB product to date, I just don't agree with their marketing strategy.. but they are in business to make money, and are according to them the first ornamental marine hatchery to turn a profit.
Having said that, I still sell ORA fish as it is the best CB product to date, I just don't agree with their marketing strategy.. but they are in business to make money, and are according to them the first ornamental marine hatchery to turn a profit.
Jeremy
I cannot speak of the large chains other than to say they do not get my money. I have a great LFS that stocks as much "Homegrown" fish that he can get. All the coral I have bought is from him which has been fragged from his colonies in his store.
The reply Anemone posted about coral was to a queastion I asked Mary if she had finnished her coral propagation pond that she had been talking about for a year, not where she said she would not stop importing coral that is propagated because it is fast growing and sustainable.
I cannot speak of the large chains other than to say they do not get my money. I have a great LFS that stocks as much "Homegrown" fish that he can get. All the coral I have bought is from him which has been fragged from his colonies in his store.
The reply Anemone posted about coral was to a queastion I asked Mary if she had finnished her coral propagation pond that she had been talking about for a year, not where she said she would not stop importing coral that is propagated because it is fast growing and sustainable.
To clarify, about me importing captively propped species...
There are NO commercial farms right now that are able to produce the variety and quantity necessary to run a wholesale facility. I have no qualms about importing the species that are truly able to be captively propagated, because those are very fast growing species. If it was possible for me to purchase in the quantities I need and with the variety necessary to compete, I would import captively propagated corals. However, aquaculture is not at a place right now that it can support a wholesale facility. That's why I am doing things to help the aquaculture facilities- to help them get to a point where it is commercially viable to purchase from them on a regular basis. Until then, I have absolutely no moral dilema about importing wild caught acropora colonies, for example. Just because something is ABLE to be captively propagated does not mean that it is commercially viable or that it ever will be. So if I were to say "I will not import species that are able to be captively bred", I'd be out of business in a minute. Because theoretically, I couldn't import any yellow tangs, many centropyge angels, many species of shrimp, etc... all of which are ABLE to be bred, but none of which are done on a commercial level.
Concerning minimum orders at various captive breeding facilities, you guys who are saying "I can buy $200 no problem" are retail stores. I am a wholesaler. That means I have to get the animals at a good price so I can resell them to retail stores. The only way I can do that is by buying in mass quantities, and even then it really isn't cost effective. Also, many of the species that are available to retail stores are not available to wholesalers because there aren't enough species that are bred in huge quantities. I can't buy 250 percula clowns and 250 maroon clowns and stay in business.
There are NO commercial farms right now that are able to produce the variety and quantity necessary to run a wholesale facility. I have no qualms about importing the species that are truly able to be captively propagated, because those are very fast growing species. If it was possible for me to purchase in the quantities I need and with the variety necessary to compete, I would import captively propagated corals. However, aquaculture is not at a place right now that it can support a wholesale facility. That's why I am doing things to help the aquaculture facilities- to help them get to a point where it is commercially viable to purchase from them on a regular basis. Until then, I have absolutely no moral dilema about importing wild caught acropora colonies, for example. Just because something is ABLE to be captively propagated does not mean that it is commercially viable or that it ever will be. So if I were to say "I will not import species that are able to be captively bred", I'd be out of business in a minute. Because theoretically, I couldn't import any yellow tangs, many centropyge angels, many species of shrimp, etc... all of which are ABLE to be bred, but none of which are done on a commercial level.
Concerning minimum orders at various captive breeding facilities, you guys who are saying "I can buy $200 no problem" are retail stores. I am a wholesaler. That means I have to get the animals at a good price so I can resell them to retail stores. The only way I can do that is by buying in mass quantities, and even then it really isn't cost effective. Also, many of the species that are available to retail stores are not available to wholesalers because there aren't enough species that are bred in huge quantities. I can't buy 250 percula clowns and 250 maroon clowns and stay in business.
This very interesting
I have repeatedly asked Mary if she would purchase aquacultered and tankraised fish rather than wild caught and she has given a number of reasons why she will not buy clownfish and corals, I do not know if live rock falls into this standard but it would appear to.
Why would a Staff member not follow the standards?
I have repeatedly asked Mary if she would purchase aquacultered and tankraised fish rather than wild caught and she has given a number of reasons why she will not buy clownfish and corals, I do not know if live rock falls into this standard but it would appear to.
Why would a Staff member not follow the standards?
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Fishaholic:
<strong>This very interesting
I have repeatedly asked Mary if she would purchase aquacultered and tankraised fish rather than wild caught and she has given a number of reasons why she will not buy clownfish and corals, I do not know if live rock falls into this standard but it would appear to.
Why would a Staff member not follow the standards?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Inflammatory to a fault!
Here are bullets 11 and 12 from the AMDA "Standards" page -
-Wholesalers will try to not purchase marine specimens shown to not survive in captivity, unless for research.
-When possible, wholesalers will purchase tank raised (captive bred) fish and invertebrates, rather than purchasing wild caught specimens.
Note the words "will try" and "when possible." I think Mary has made it abundantly clear, even for one as pugnacious as you, that she meets these standards.
Kevin
<strong>This very interesting
I have repeatedly asked Mary if she would purchase aquacultered and tankraised fish rather than wild caught and she has given a number of reasons why she will not buy clownfish and corals, I do not know if live rock falls into this standard but it would appear to.
Why would a Staff member not follow the standards?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Inflammatory to a fault!
Here are bullets 11 and 12 from the AMDA "Standards" page -
-Wholesalers will try to not purchase marine specimens shown to not survive in captivity, unless for research.
-When possible, wholesalers will purchase tank raised (captive bred) fish and invertebrates, rather than purchasing wild caught specimens.
Note the words "will try" and "when possible." I think Mary has made it abundantly clear, even for one as pugnacious as you, that she meets these standards.
Kevin
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