Miracle Mud Analysis Complete!

[Anonymous]

Steve: In my sump and other sumps that I have seen the Caulerpa grows roots into the substrate. That could be how the iron is utilized and how the caulerpa is able to beat out the other nuisciance algaes.

Mitch: My tank is setup with a MM sump and a DSB in my reef. The site says not to do this but I have been doing it and the algae is growing great in the sump and the corals are doing great on the top.

Is the caulerpa you are trying just dying in your tank?


Chris

 

[Anonymous]

Nasa: Theres some pieces in the mud that are about the same size as your regular carib-sea aragonite and then it gets to some that are about half the size of your aragamax. I think shane might have actual measurments. The substrates is also very absorbent.

Chris

 

[GLD]

SInce "Miracle Mud" is so expensive, what about putting a layer of fine sand in the bottom of the sump with a layer (1" thick??) of miracle mud on top??

 

[liquid]

Nope, I don't have measurements of the particlesize distribution of the product. However, I do have a small sample still from Inland Reef that I could do some seiving on here at work. The question then becomes: do I have the proper seives to make a useful measurement of the distribution. I'll get back to you on this...

liquid

 

[MattM]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Carpentersreef:
<strong>...I saw nowhere where Ecosystem recommended NOT doing what I did. All I could find is where they recommend against a shallow sandbed in the main tank.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Huh? This is a cut-and-paste from their web site:

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote

"We recommend the substrate in the main tank be limited to 3/8" or less."

They specifically recommend against DSB's saying they cause unwanted algae and hydrogen sulfide. They also recommend vacuuming the sand. It's real pre-DSB thinking. Here is the entire paragragh from their FAQ:

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>How much Live Sand or Crushed Coral do I put into my Main Tank????

In an Ecosystem tank the purpose of the substrate is for decoration only!!!! The substrate does not contribute to the filtration of the system. Our experiments indicate a base of 1" or more could become a nutrient sink and could produce an undesired effect. The Nitrites and Phosphates will become high, an Algae Bloom could occur, and maybe Hydrogen Sulfide Gas. We recommend the substrate in the main tank be limited to 3/8" or less. We also recommend siphoning the substrate to remove detritus and regular water changes.<hr></blockquote>

 

[MattM]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by NASAReefKeeper:
<strong>Matt... could you report the grain size of the mud, if you know it.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Overall it's not as fine as CaribSea Aragamax. There is some very small silt-like grains, but most are about 1/2 the size of CaribSea SeaFlor Aragonite - the kind we used to use for Jaubert plenum systems.

There are also some "pebbles" about 1/8" or so (and occasional plant roots, but that's another story

).

 

[Carpentersreef]

Yes,
At 3/8", a decoration in the main tank is all that that substrate would be. My understanding of it was that at a depth of say 3/4" UP TO 4" would be a detritus sump, but of course they don't mention anything about a properly operating DSB.
Isn't their refugium design kind of set up to operate LIKE a DSB?

Mitch

 

[liquid]

You know Matt, that quote you just posted about the substrate being for "decoration only" really seems STRANGE to me. If it's only for decoration only, why are they selling a "decoration only" substrate for $10/lb?! I don't get that one.... Whoever wrote up that FAQ must have been sniffing something...

Shane (aka "liquid")

 

[jamesw]

Yep, anyone recommending against using a DSB is serioulsy "misguided" or just plain trying to sell a product. It sounds to me like marketing designed to get people to REPLACE a good DSB with the miracle mud(tm) system.

On another note, anyone who cites sandbeds as a possible source of "dangerous hydrogen sulphide," is just showing how TOTALLY IGNORANT they are of natural "filtration" processes...

Cheers
James Wiseman

 

[Carpentersreef]

Steve,
I think you're right. Iron released into the water column is not as beneficial. I think I read that somewhere way back when. As to why one algae takes up the nutrients first, I'd sure like to know why and how...

great, something ELSE to figure out!

Mitch

 

[danmhippo]

Shane, I believe the "subtrate to be less than 3/8 inches" refers to the main tank subtrate, NOT sump/refugium/MM subtrate depth.

Also, I have heard (believe is from Shimek) that the caulerpa root are only for anchoring themselves. The main nutrition intake occurs on the leave and branches. If that holds true, then the statement that caulerpa "root" receives iron/ferite from the mud itself is false. The Iron must be leaching slowly into the water column, somehow.

 

[danmhippo]

I too posted earlier (last year?) that I quit on the MM and switched out the MM with plain fine sand. I still have strong growth of caulerpa in the refugium with MM absent. I personally don't see how the $10/# can be justified if you can buy $2/# of regular sand.

Oh, forgot to add, I buried a couple flora tablet into the sand bed before I planted the caulerpa. But still, the cost is no more than $2.50/#.

 

[randy holmes-farley]

<< I know when I have read where someone has added iron in a liquid form to help their caulerpa grow I always cringe. >>

I do that. I add a ton of iron, and add it almost daily. No algae problems at all.

 

[liquid]

Randy: this is kind of a side question: why again are you adding iron? Didn't you see some nasty cyano growth or something actually on your caulerpa until you started dosing w/ iron?

Shane (aka "liquid")

 

[SPC]

Hi Randy, on what did you base your dosing amount for iron?

 

[randy holmes-farley]

Several years ago I set up a refugium. I stocked it with a variety of things, including a bunch of macroalgae from Inland Aquatics. They grew very well for a while, but were eventually overtaken by microalgae. Eventually, I had to remove most of it.

When I asked about this on line, someone suggested dosing with iron. I followed their advice, and dosed with an amount suggested in one of Tullock's books. I can't recall offhand what that amount was, but I believe that it is significantly lower than what I now use.

Over time, I ramped up the dose a bit. I've not seen any significant problem with microalgae since starting to dose iron, but other things on the system have also evolved with time, and I cannot state with certainty that the iron was the only factor (or even a part of the solution).

I presently dose iron (II) citrate solution to the tank. It is mostly dissolved, but it is dark, and may have gotten solids in it over time (perhaps as the iron becomes iron (III)).

FWIW, I don't even measure it anymore. I just pour in a bit (say, 0.1 to 0.3 mL). I'll check the concentration later if anyone is interested.

 

[jamesw]

For whoever asked, yes, caulerpa is NOT a plant and does not have "roots." It is an algae (much like giant kelp) and has "Holdfasts" instead.

I believe they do not play a role in nutrient uptake.

So...the high iron content in teh MM would have to be dissolved to "get out" of the mudbed and be used by the caulerpa.

Let's face it, the point of the caulerpa is to have a nice pretty refugium and host a lot of bugs. Everyone knows that caulerpa is pretty nasty stuff and makes a crapp filter organism. Turfs will beat it hands down any day and this is shown in "the literature" on coral reef productivity.

Cheers
James

 

[Anonymous]

GLD: The MM is only supposed to be about 1" deep anyways. Its meant to be in a sump or refugium and not in the main tank.

I think the DSB post is just ignorance. I'd still say there is a good percentage on reefs.org and other boards that still dont believe in the DSB. I am personally running a DSB in my top tank and the MM in the sump. I was trying to use a similiar substance to MM but since I buy wholesale it was actually cheaper than ordering small quantities of unrefined CA Bentonite.

Chris

 

[SPC]

James, would you elaborate please?
Steve

 

[Mouse]

I was just thinking that Lava Rock might actually be good for marine tanks after all. Whenever i have mentioned to people about using lava rock before i have allways been told that it was unsuitable because of the ammount of Iron it contained. After all i suppose its the iron that gives it the red colour. But after reading the analasys of Miracle Mud, it has become apparent that Iron is actually a very usefull thing to have, especially when used to form the basis of a macro algal refugeum. Lava Rock is also very very porus, much more porus than Tufa or Ocean Rock for example. So whats stopping me from using Lava Rock to make live rocks????

im determined to get my 400 gallon tank and not paying for LR would reduce the cost by 1/3rd, there must be another way than Arragocrete.