Chemical Composition of "Miracle Mud"
- Thread starter MattM
- Start date
There is a description of the RFA analysis used at the bottom of this (other review) page: http://www.lars-sebralla.de/ma_rowaphos.html. I'm sure one of the chemists here maybe able to fill us in more on this method of analysis.
Just to add checkout the rest of Lars site with a translator. He has some tests of other chemical products suchas Polyfilters and test kits.
http://www.lars-sebralla.de/manalysen.html
[ September 20, 2001: Message edited by: simonh ]
Just to add checkout the rest of Lars site with a translator. He has some tests of other chemical products suchas Polyfilters and test kits.
http://www.lars-sebralla.de/manalysen.html
[ September 20, 2001: Message edited by: simonh ]
:K ratio is...TomOcean,
Not to bicker, but my 55 did great for the first 4+ months with a fluidized bed, no skimmer, no supplements, crushed shell substrate. I didn't even use a hydrometer for the first 3 months. Then I had an algae bloom after 5 or 6 months. Then, on the advice of my LFS (I said once before that I put the owners kids through College) I put in a HOB wet/dry skimmer combo and I ran that for 4 months. Then I replaced it with a sump/refugium w/ a DSB and a better skimmer. Then I started dosing kalkwasser and the tank started looking much better. Then I spent a long and difficult Saturday replacing the crushed shell with a DSB. I think my tank looks great, but it has been a long, difficult, expensive road, and the shelves of my garage are littered with products that I wish I had never bought.
My point: anyone who questions/researches the benefit of a particular product possibly to save some bozo like me a couple of bucks- more power to them!
Most people list the ingredients in their concoctions, just not the relative amounts. The primary reason why they list the ingredients is for safety (alergies, interactions, what to do if your kid eats some, etc) They also list the ingredients so that consumers don't think that the only "miracle" is that people are gullible enough to buy the product.
Not to bicker, but my 55 did great for the first 4+ months with a fluidized bed, no skimmer, no supplements, crushed shell substrate. I didn't even use a hydrometer for the first 3 months. Then I had an algae bloom after 5 or 6 months. Then, on the advice of my LFS (I said once before that I put the owners kids through College) I put in a HOB wet/dry skimmer combo and I ran that for 4 months. Then I replaced it with a sump/refugium w/ a DSB and a better skimmer. Then I started dosing kalkwasser and the tank started looking much better. Then I spent a long and difficult Saturday replacing the crushed shell with a DSB. I think my tank looks great, but it has been a long, difficult, expensive road, and the shelves of my garage are littered with products that I wish I had never bought.
My point: anyone who questions/researches the benefit of a particular product possibly to save some bozo like me a couple of bucks- more power to them!
Most people list the ingredients in their concoctions, just not the relative amounts. The primary reason why they list the ingredients is for safety (alergies, interactions, what to do if your kid eats some, etc) They also list the ingredients so that consumers don't think that the only "miracle" is that people are gullible enough to buy the product.
Dude...it's dirt. What ingredients do you want them to list? I was as skeptical as you were at first, but I'm not the only one having success with it. There are lots of testimonials from others who have had success. I may end up needing to add Calcium/Buffer at some point, but so far I've already saved $ not having to. I've saved the $ for not having a skimmer. Yes, the tank has only been going for 4 months, but I've had other tanks and none of them have been this easy. Like I said before, I don't have any problem with people who want to try to find out "what makes it tick" for curiosity sake or even to try to reproduce it.
Personally, I don't think that it's just "dirt" that someone dug up out of their back yard. Look at that iron, calcium, and aluminum level. They're friggin HUGE! I went ahead and compared MM to the 28 planted aquaria substrates which are *specifically* designed to yield great growth in freshwater planted tanks. Out of 28 possible freshwater planted substrates, Miracle Mud has the highest amount of Al, the 5th highest amount of Fe (only the laterites, and Duplalit G were significantly higher and they're almost 100% iron), and the 3rd highest amount of Ca. There's also a LOT of silica in there too... Personally, I believe that there is a formulating / blending process in there somewhere that adds maybe 2 or possibly even 3 soils together to yield these results. My best guess would be that they're taking a soil that is high in calcium and aluminum and silica, and blending in a percentage of laterite to yield the high iron content. This is my best guess and I'm just guessing.
Actually, I think the way Leng Sy designed the filter on the following url has something to do w/ how well the macroalgaes grow:
http://www.ecosystemaquarium.com/html/miracle_application.html
The incoming chamber consists of bioballs followed by the refugium containing the MM substrate which is high in iron, calcium, aluminum, and silica. The outgoing water then flows thru another chamber with bioballs and then returns to the tank. Now it's general knowledge that bioballs promote elevated nitrate levels and that's why many people advocate removing them from a sump. My guess is that the bioballs are there to create a "nitrate factory" for the macroalgaes and the iron laden substrate is there to provide iron to the macroalgaes in order to promote their growth. The macro's suck up the various nitrogen species, phosphates, and iron and grow like nuts. That's my take on how the filter "works" at least.
The question arises in my mind that what if you mixed some laterite with some aragonite and replaced the MM with this concoction and how would it compare to a filter running on MM vs. pure aragonite. It would be an interesting test...
I'd really like to get my hands on a small sample of the stuff and look at it under my microscope...
liquid
[ September 21, 2001: Message edited by: LiquidShaneo ]
Actually, I think the way Leng Sy designed the filter on the following url has something to do w/ how well the macroalgaes grow:
http://www.ecosystemaquarium.com/html/miracle_application.html
The incoming chamber consists of bioballs followed by the refugium containing the MM substrate which is high in iron, calcium, aluminum, and silica. The outgoing water then flows thru another chamber with bioballs and then returns to the tank. Now it's general knowledge that bioballs promote elevated nitrate levels and that's why many people advocate removing them from a sump. My guess is that the bioballs are there to create a "nitrate factory" for the macroalgaes and the iron laden substrate is there to provide iron to the macroalgaes in order to promote their growth. The macro's suck up the various nitrogen species, phosphates, and iron and grow like nuts. That's my take on how the filter "works" at least.
I'd really like to get my hands on a small sample of the stuff and look at it under my microscope...
liquid
[ September 21, 2001: Message edited by: LiquidShaneo ]
I think we need to keep things in perspective. You can probably setup a tank using gravel from the driveway and have it do well for 4 months. 4 months is not enough time to prove / disprove any particular technique in this hobby. I have a 20 gallon office tank that has no skimming, additives, DSB or MM and it has been doing great for years, not months.
Most systems I have run (other than SPS/clam tanks with a heavy calcium requirement) pretty much maintain their calcium and other water parameters at first, probably through the action of fresh aragonite sand beds, etc. Show me a system with a reasonably high Calcium demand (soft coral only tanks do no count) using MM and no other additives and no more than a 20% monthly water change that has been running successfully in excess of at least a year and I will be impressed.
--- Ken
Most systems I have run (other than SPS/clam tanks with a heavy calcium requirement) pretty much maintain their calcium and other water parameters at first, probably through the action of fresh aragonite sand beds, etc. Show me a system with a reasonably high Calcium demand (soft coral only tanks do no count) using MM and no other additives and no more than a 20% monthly water change that has been running successfully in excess of at least a year and I will be impressed.
--- Ken
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LiquidShaneo:
<STRONG>I'd really like to get my hands on a small sample of the stuff and look at it under my microscope...</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
We did that. Here's the thread: Miracle Mud. Is this stuff worth getting?
<STRONG>I'd really like to get my hands on a small sample of the stuff and look at it under my microscope...</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
We did that. Here's the thread: Miracle Mud. Is this stuff worth getting?
Here's the most important question, IMO, and I'll quote from my post in the other thread:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR> For people that are using the Ecosystem method with miracle mud:
You use a caulerpa refugium with the mud in it, right? So my question is:
How do you directly attribute your success to the miracle mud? Where is the direct link that attributes your success to the mud?
Would your tank not do as well, or crash, if you were just using arragonite instead of the miracle mud?
Cheers
James Wiseman
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Perhaps now we can move toward answering that question. Can anyone say "Yes! The high Aluminum concentration in my Miracle Mud is what makes my tank thrive" or something along those lines?
Cheers,
James
[ September 21, 2001: Message edited by: jamesw ]
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR> For people that are using the Ecosystem method with miracle mud:
You use a caulerpa refugium with the mud in it, right? So my question is:
How do you directly attribute your success to the miracle mud? Where is the direct link that attributes your success to the mud?
Would your tank not do as well, or crash, if you were just using arragonite instead of the miracle mud?
Cheers
James Wiseman
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Perhaps now we can move toward answering that question. Can anyone say "Yes! The high Aluminum concentration in my Miracle Mud is what makes my tank thrive" or something along those lines?
Cheers,
James
[ September 21, 2001: Message edited by: jamesw ]
Matt,
My request for the sample to examine under the microscope was to produce digital pictures and post them somewhere on the web of the various items found in the mud substrate itself. You have noted various items and I'll quote you from your previous thread:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR> We have examined it under high magnification and we believe it is simply dirt. We were unable to find any shell fragments, oolitic sand grains, or any other evidence that it was ever anywhere near an ocean. We found small chunks of quartz, other pebbles, humus, and small plant/root fragments. It is indistinguishable from backyard dirt.
Keep in mind that EcoSystems claims it is ocean mud dried through a "special process". Some others we have spoken to have found twigs and rodent droppings in it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
My request was to get actual pictures of these items. Do you have pictures and if so, are they posted somewhere, or can you post them somewhere?
liquid
My request for the sample to examine under the microscope was to produce digital pictures and post them somewhere on the web of the various items found in the mud substrate itself. You have noted various items and I'll quote you from your previous thread:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR> We have examined it under high magnification and we believe it is simply dirt. We were unable to find any shell fragments, oolitic sand grains, or any other evidence that it was ever anywhere near an ocean. We found small chunks of quartz, other pebbles, humus, and small plant/root fragments. It is indistinguishable from backyard dirt.
Keep in mind that EcoSystems claims it is ocean mud dried through a "special process". Some others we have spoken to have found twigs and rodent droppings in it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
My request was to get actual pictures of these items. Do you have pictures and if so, are they posted somewhere, or can you post them somewhere?
liquid
Just as a note, I noticed where someone gave Dr Ron a link to the page James gave, his response was that it looked like with that high of an iron content it would fuel unwanted algae. I dont know if this iron is in a soluble form that would enter the water column or not, just thought this was something to ponder.
Steve
Steve
FWIW, it takes more than just iron to fuel unwanted algae. An interesting read sometime can be foune here:
http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/Fertilizer/sears-conlin.html
Yes the paper is more for freshwater planted aquaria, but much of the work there could be extrapolated to a certain extent into macroalgae growth too.
liquid
http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/Fertilizer/sears-conlin.html
Yes the paper is more for freshwater planted aquaria, but much of the work there could be extrapolated to a certain extent into macroalgae growth too.
liquid
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LiquidShaneo:
<STRONG>My request was to get actual pictures of these items. Do you have pictures and if so, are they posted somewhere, or can you post them somewhere?</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
No, I don't have pictures. We have a digital camera at the store, but I haven't tried taking photomicrographs with it. We still have some of it from our tests that we could send you if you have better gear for getting photos.
<STRONG>My request was to get actual pictures of these items. Do you have pictures and if so, are they posted somewhere, or can you post them somewhere?</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
No, I don't have pictures. We have a digital camera at the store, but I haven't tried taking photomicrographs with it. We still have some of it from our tests that we could send you if you have better gear for getting photos.
I have a much easier solution to all of this. What needs to be done is spy on the manufactures. If you see thim go into their back yard with a shouvel you know what is going on.
If I lived even close to the comapny that makes the stuff I would apply for a part time job and even spy on them by visual observation or dumpster diving!
This approach would be much more sucessful than trying to analyze how they did it.
If I lived even close to the comapny that makes the stuff I would apply for a part time job and even spy on them by visual observation or dumpster diving!
This approach would be much more sucessful than trying to analyze how they did it.
Yeah, I have a Nikon microscope with a Fuji 1.5 megapixel camera attachment that can take pretty detailed pics. Here's a couple examples:
http://liquidreef.freeservers.com/cementsand/cementsand_cat.html
(oolitic sand)
http://liquidreef.freeservers.com/inverts/2001-01-04/20010104_cat.html
(some tank water and tiny Aiptasia's)
I can get pretty close...
liquid
http://liquidreef.freeservers.com/cementsand/cementsand_cat.html
(oolitic sand)
http://liquidreef.freeservers.com/inverts/2001-01-04/20010104_cat.html
(some tank water and tiny Aiptasia's)
I can get pretty close...
liquid
Shane,
Actually, the MM does resemble the soil found in Southern California. Heck, I grew up there and remember having to dig all those (*^(*)^ holes for my dad's fruit trees.
The soil in Socal has a LOT of silica beach sand in it...just like the MM does.
Cheers
James
Actually, the MM does resemble the soil found in Southern California. Heck, I grew up there and remember having to dig all those (*^(*)^ holes for my dad's fruit trees.
The soil in Socal has a LOT of silica beach sand in it...just like the MM does.
Cheers
James
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