Chemical Composition of "Miracle Mud"
- Thread starter MattM
- Start date
Although I do not claim to know the ingredients of the Mud, I have People's exhibit #1. This is my 180g. ecosystem reef, containing 90% sps corals, 2 crocea clams, some polyp rocks, 2 gorgonians, mycedium, diploastria, pectinia, and 2 tangs, potters angel, copperband, spotted mandarin goby, 8 blue reef chromis and this tank has been set up since Dec.6th of 2000. I drip kalk. 24/7 and add Kent's Superbuffer powder for my alk. This reef tank is very stable even in the short time it has been setup whether or not the mud is the answer I can only say my 120g. sps tank has never done this good or had as rapid of growth in my sps corals.
my 180 ecosystem: http://berlinmethod.com/suet/
my 120 sps tank: http://suetruett.homestead.com/home.html www.marshreef.org/members
my 180 ecosystem: http://berlinmethod.com/suet/
my 120 sps tank: http://suetruett.homestead.com/home.html www.marshreef.org/members
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jamesw:
<STRONG>Yeah, in Europe, they use commas and periods backwards...Kind of like they drive on the wrong side of the road over there too...
</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes James and we also wear our 'Pants' on the inside of our 'Trousers' too.
<STRONG>Yeah, in Europe, they use commas and periods backwards...Kind of like they drive on the wrong side of the road over there too...
Yes James and we also wear our 'Pants' on the inside of our 'Trousers' too.
I have been very interested in this discussion so far. One point i would like to make is there anyone who is running a MM system without LS & LR. Because as far as i was aware aragonite based LS could be the whole reason why people seem to be under the impression there systems are 'Flourashing'. I know many individuals who own tanks that contain solely arragonite LS & LR and they profess the same. They use no additives and no suppliments and they all tell me their systems Flourish. I might all so add that many of the pictures of 'flourishing' tanks i have seen are pure cack and i would be embarresed to have spent that much time and effort with those kind of results. There are of course many outstanding setups on this board dont get me wrong. For me to beleve that i have achived in this hobby would mean that i had allarming growth rates of SPS corals, spawning of small polyops, and cloneing of LPS corals. None of which i have had yet except for my metallic Xenia spawining. Therefore i do not consider myself successfull. My tank is beutifull none the less but not successfull. Infact i will know i have been successfull when my £4000 investment has paid for itself in producing frags and clones. Success in this hobby is not just keeping things alive, its allowing them to replicate every possible behavoural pattern as in nature, preferably on a daily basis. Hows about proof of success, photos growth rates and spawing events. Put your tank where your mouth is, lets see it so we can make our own mind up about it.
Anyone out there with a MM only ecosystem set up, no arragonite LS, no LR just TLC.
Bring it on....
[ October 01, 2001: Message edited by: Mouse ]
Anyone out there with a MM only ecosystem set up, no arragonite LS, no LR just TLC.
Bring it on....
[ October 01, 2001: Message edited by: Mouse ]
(sorry about being on a bit of a rant but im at work and a bit bored so just bear with me)
What concerns me is not the capabilities of the miracle mud system, because at the end of the day there is nothing new about the 'system'. We have all seen refugeums before.
The only inovation here is the supply of a new refugeum substrate. Now what i want to know is that while these systems may be producing huge growth in Macro algies, is this growth actually beneficial to the export of toxins from our systems.
Basically is this mud 'aiding' the growth of macro algie causing 'further' removal of toxins from the water column than a conventional 'macro algal filter'.
Or is the water infact 'filtered' to a lesser degree than a conventional 'macroalgal filter' because the organic assimillation of toxins and nutrients is derived directly from the miracle mud.
Could be a dumb question, but i hope you get the jist of what im trying to say.
James W, shed some light
[ October 01, 2001: Message edited by: Mouse ]
What concerns me is not the capabilities of the miracle mud system, because at the end of the day there is nothing new about the 'system'. We have all seen refugeums before.
The only inovation here is the supply of a new refugeum substrate. Now what i want to know is that while these systems may be producing huge growth in Macro algies, is this growth actually beneficial to the export of toxins from our systems.
Basically is this mud 'aiding' the growth of macro algie causing 'further' removal of toxins from the water column than a conventional 'macro algal filter'.
Or is the water infact 'filtered' to a lesser degree than a conventional 'macroalgal filter' because the organic assimillation of toxins and nutrients is derived directly from the miracle mud.
Could be a dumb question, but i hope you get the jist of what im trying to say.
James W, shed some light
[ October 01, 2001: Message edited by: Mouse ]
Like I said in a previous post, I believe that the MM system "works" because of how it is setup. According to Leng's website, the first portion of the "filter" is a chamber that contains bioballs. Now most of us know that a wet/dry with bioballs is a "nitrate factory" but it does a good job of breaking down wastes pretty quickly but causes a nitrate spike. The next section of the "filter" is an iron rich substrate. This substrate has about 1/4 of the iron (Fe) of laterite, approx 36,000 ppm or 3.6% Fe (laterite has about 110,000-120,000 ppm Fe or 11%-12% Fe). This is a HUGE amount of Fe -- even compared to many of the freshwater planted substrates for planted tanks (it was 5th highest on the link I posted earlier).
Now think of fertilizing a garden/yard: you need 3 primary nitrients N
:K (nitrogen : phosphorus : potassium) and extrapolate that to fertilization of macroalgaes. The bioballs (breakdown of food, wastes, etc) provide the nitrogen source, food provides the phosphorus, and natural saltwater has *plenty* of potassium. Plants and algaes need a certain amount of Fe for optimum growth as well and the FW planted people have been using Fe containing substrates for many years. I believe Leng extrapolated this into saltwater aquaria and is using an Fe rich substrate for this exact purpose: aid in macroalgae growth.
This is all anecdotal evidence from here on out, but I've talked to / read about a couple people that have added laterite (an Fe rich clay) to their aragonite sandbed or started dosing with liquid Fe concoctions and noted a marked improvement in their macroalgae growth (I believe it was Delbeek that was playing around with laterite in with some of his seagrasses at a previous MACNA and showed an improvement in their growth?). Before this event they were having problems with either nuisance algae and/or poor macroalgae growth.
An interesting experiment to verify what James has been asking all along (is it the MM that is working in the "filter" or would a DSB/aragonite do the same thing) would be to setup 3 different tanks: one w/ MM, one with pure aragonite, and a 3rd with aragonite + laterite at a known concentration. Detailed observation of the tank and the macroalgaes would of primary interest.
An interesting thing that I've heard a couple people say on chat is that if MM contains high concentrations of Fe that maybe the reason corals show a marked improvement is that they need some trace amounts of Fe for their zooxanthellae to flourish along with trace amounts of nitrogen from the bioball section. Dunno about this. Maybe Borneman could comment on this supposition.
Anyhow, FWIW,
liquid
[ October 01, 2001: Message edited by: LiquidShaneo ]
Now think of fertilizing a garden/yard: you need 3 primary nitrients N
:K (nitrogen : phosphorus : potassium) and extrapolate that to fertilization of macroalgaes. The bioballs (breakdown of food, wastes, etc) provide the nitrogen source, food provides the phosphorus, and natural saltwater has *plenty* of potassium. Plants and algaes need a certain amount of Fe for optimum growth as well and the FW planted people have been using Fe containing substrates for many years. I believe Leng extrapolated this into saltwater aquaria and is using an Fe rich substrate for this exact purpose: aid in macroalgae growth.This is all anecdotal evidence from here on out, but I've talked to / read about a couple people that have added laterite (an Fe rich clay) to their aragonite sandbed or started dosing with liquid Fe concoctions and noted a marked improvement in their macroalgae growth (I believe it was Delbeek that was playing around with laterite in with some of his seagrasses at a previous MACNA and showed an improvement in their growth?). Before this event they were having problems with either nuisance algae and/or poor macroalgae growth.
An interesting experiment to verify what James has been asking all along (is it the MM that is working in the "filter" or would a DSB/aragonite do the same thing) would be to setup 3 different tanks: one w/ MM, one with pure aragonite, and a 3rd with aragonite + laterite at a known concentration. Detailed observation of the tank and the macroalgaes would of primary interest.
An interesting thing that I've heard a couple people say on chat is that if MM contains high concentrations of Fe that maybe the reason corals show a marked improvement is that they need some trace amounts of Fe for their zooxanthellae to flourish along with trace amounts of nitrogen from the bioball section. Dunno about this. Maybe Borneman could comment on this supposition.
Anyhow, FWIW,
liquid
[ October 01, 2001: Message edited by: LiquidShaneo ]
I sense this is not the right moment but, if anyone wants you can go to http://world.altavista.com and type in http://www.lars-sebralla.de/ma_miracle.html in the url field select german to english and it gives a pretty good translation.
Lars has now added some more information to his site (see original link) underneath the analysis table. He includes some microscopic pictures of the mud and a commentery on the likely makeup and dissoloution of elements.
[ October 09, 2001: Message edited by: simonh ]
[ October 09, 2001: Message edited by: simonh ]
Interesting...
Note that Jens Kallmeyer suggests that, based on the known chemical composition of the constituent minerals, MM does not react with seawater hardly at all.
We haven't gotten the results back from the lab yet, but a good follow-on would be to analyze a 6-month old sample from a filter. If it was essentially the same composition, then it would confirm Kallmeyer's assumption.
We have been running an Eco-System filter on our holding system since April, so we have a source for the sample.
One interesting thing, despite the presence of an active live sand bed in this system, no visible life has moved into the MM at all.
Note that Jens Kallmeyer suggests that, based on the known chemical composition of the constituent minerals, MM does not react with seawater hardly at all.
We haven't gotten the results back from the lab yet, but a good follow-on would be to analyze a 6-month old sample from a filter. If it was essentially the same composition, then it would confirm Kallmeyer's assumption.
We have been running an Eco-System filter on our holding system since April, so we have a source for the sample.
One interesting thing, despite the presence of an active live sand bed in this system, no visible life has moved into the MM at all.
Based on the microphotos we have, there is not much Mica in it. But in any case, here is the chemical composition of the two most common types:
Muscovite Mica:
47.78% Oxygen
21.14% Silicon
20.31% Aluminum
9.81% Potassium
0.48% Hydrogen
0.48% Fluorine
Biotite Mica:
43.36% Oxygen
19.44% Silicon
14.02% Magnesium
9.02% Potassium
6.44% Iron
6.22% Aluminum
1.10% Fluorine
0.41% Hydrogen
Muscovite Mica:
47.78% Oxygen
21.14% Silicon
20.31% Aluminum
9.81% Potassium
0.48% Hydrogen
0.48% Fluorine
Biotite Mica:
43.36% Oxygen
19.44% Silicon
14.02% Magnesium
9.02% Potassium
6.44% Iron
6.22% Aluminum
1.10% Fluorine
0.41% Hydrogen
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