Tang Growth

[Cruiser]

Steve - I have over 10 years(35+ years)in maintaining marine aquariums, I just generally don't post due to negativity surrounding this topic! (not singling you out, you asked the question

, and again it is just my experienced opinion).

I really don't understand why there is such animosity towards maintaining Tangs in smaller aquariums........with this thought process......it should then generate the equivalent animosity towards maintaining Angels, Wrasses, Butterfly, chromis, basslets, gobies, blennies, etc.....and even clowns!.

for an example....you do realize that centropyge angels have almost an equal vegetable dietary requirement as Tangs
(species in question) and maintain a good size roaming range....larger then 95% of maintained aquariums! Never see any negative comments / complaints about tank size?

Sorry, got way off topic. There are limitations on what size fish - any fish - should be put in certain size tanks......I also don't want people to purchase an 8" juvenile Naso sp., and put it in a 40 gallon; BUT, there is nothing wrong with putting an 1" blue tang in the same tank.

Most fish will not outgrow their environment due to various natural selection drives. Aquarist change these rules by constantly providing an abundance of food beyond normal feeding routines.

Also I see posts about tangs per tank size and then maintaining numerous tangs in these tanks is completely against the ideology of the post. This should be interpreted as 1-tang for 100 gallons & 1-tang for 150 gallons should be kept in a 300 gallon (a little extra for dietary competition, etc.), not as 2-tangs in 150 gallons. This is just my opinon and would apply in maintaining large subadult tangs, not small juvenile tangs which can be kept in community environments for years.

The main question should be is the tank environment stable & healthy. Is that particular hobbiest providing optimal Water parameters, filtration capacity, Feeding / nutrition, quarantine methods and stress issues due to tank mates.

Personally, in my opinion is that it takes an experienced aquarist to know which fish to purchase from the available livestock presented at the LFS. Tangs as an example, are generally underfed, environmentally stressed (including tapping on glass

) and habor diseases (please quarantine)due to suppressed imune system responses in most stores.....not completely the stores fault as they receive Tangs in deteriating conditions from there suppliers, etc down the chain

. This is one of the largest contributors to the amount of disease outbreaks and death for tangs (most sw fish). Tank size can contribute to disease outbreaks due to smaller water volume or increased stress, but, generally it is realted to other factors like environment quality, etc.

Again I have gotten way off topic but Marinelifes Naso sp. tang he posted was noted to be very healthy, housed in an adequate environment, and if I had to find any problem, personally, is that the growth rate was too fast....

Flame away......have my protective suit button up

 

[Green Lantern]

Most fish will not outgrow their environment due to various natural selection drives. Aquarist change these rules by constantly providing an abundance of food beyond normal feeding routines.

I've read that this is old thinking and is probably due to the old sterile environments that fish were kept. I know that in my own observations of the two tangs that I've kept, both grew quickly.

I really don't understand why there is such animosity towards maintaining Tangs in smaller aquariums........with this thought process......it should then generate the equivalent animosity towards maintaining Angels, Wrasses, Butterfly, chromis, basslets, gobies, blennies, etc.....and even clowns!.

Every fish not kept in an appropriate sized tank is wrong. Generally it is the larger fish that people can't provide the proper home for. Clowns will look after a small area in the tank as will the basslets. There is much caution surrounding certain blennies. All of the fish have certain requirements and they should be met. One of the tangs requirements seems to be space. The only people that argue this are those that don't have the space but want the fish anyway. I have a theory as to why you don't see as many, "can I keep a P. imperator in a 40 gal?" posts: They are too expensive! People seem willing to take a chance on a $15 dollar fish but not so much with a $150 fish.

for an example....you do realize that centropyge angels have almost an equal vegetable dietary requirement as Tangs
(species in question) and maintain a good size roaming range....larger then 95% of maintained aquariums! Never see any negative comments / complaints about tank size?

I'd like to hear more information on this subject if you have time. Do you have any sources for that statement?

I also wanted to point out that the guy who started this thread has a beautiful fish and obviously is providing good care for it. I got caught up in the tang argument not his particular tang.

 

[naesco]

Tangs are different.
All you have to do is observe them in a large tank. They motor at high speed from end to end. Large wrasse do the same thing.
Angels, butterflys, bassletts and gobies kind of hang around swimming a bit, poking around here and there.
IMO tangs need large long tanks to do what comes naturally for them.
It is not in their nature to be confined so that they cannot swim.
I stress, all you have to do is observe them in large tanks. The other fish you mentioned, except for large wrasse, do not have that requirement.
Thank you

 

[Anonymous]

Good looking tang. Glad he is in your tank

. You seem to care about your animals.

Funny, I have seen angels in all of the public aquariums that I have visited in 50,000 gallon tanks. All of them move in areas much bigger than 10"x 4' x 4'. This tells me that they want more room.
The whole argument is one of personal preference when it comes to the fish that swim so freely in the ocean. I, for one, don't believe that fish have feelings such as happy, sad, love, etc. They have nervous systems that understand fight or flight. That being said, I am also of the opinion that tangs "should" be in tanks larger than many people have. I am considering not putting one in my 100 gallon. This, however doesn't mean that it should or shouldn't be done. There are too many people that haven't learned by experience, that ask for help and get flamed. It is much easier to catch a fly with honey than with vinegar. Many times I ignore the advise of people because of the way they have treated others on the boards. I have been doing this long enough that 95% of the time I respond to questions. Lots of research, time and money have gone topward my "reef education". There was a post a while ago of a tank crash, asking for advise, one answer was stop reading the boards to find out if anyone has answered your question. Great amount of help that was. It is entirely possible to communicate an error than saying "you are a complete idiot". Maybe try something like The problem could be xxx, it is the opinion of many people, fish experts such as xxx, It is easier on the "offender" andmaybe he will actually finish reading the post.

[ July 23, 2001: Message edited by: SteveNichols ]

 

[Cruiser]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote

I've read that this is old thinking and is probably due to the old sterile environments that fish were kept. I know that in my own observations of the two tangs that I've kept, both grew quickly.

For the most part if the fish are left to feed normally - grazing on vegetable matter on live rock, they will increase in size normally, and might outgrow their environments, but it will take a while. However, most fish owners overfed their livestock, which changes feeding patterns, growth rates, etc.

You are right to a degree, and it could be restated as "aquarium inhabitants - fish will / could overtime outgrow their environments"

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote

Every fish not kept in an appropriate sized tank is wrong. Generally it is the larger fish that people can't provide the proper home for. Clowns will look after a small area in the tank as will the basslets. There is much caution surrounding certain blennies. All of the fish have certain requirements and they should be met. One of the tangs requirements seems to be space. The only people that argue this are those that don't have the space but want the fish anyway. I have a theory as to why you don't see as many, "can I keep a P. imperator in a 40 gal?" posts: They are too expensive! People seem willing to take a chance on a $15 dollar fish but not so much with a $150 fish.

This just shows you that they are adaptive. A clown, gobie, basslet, blenny, etc., are able to happly exist in smaller aquariums; However, this is not their normal swimming, feeding, existing range.....same with the Tangs, they are highly adaptive and happy in smaller aquariums.

Still if we make "Space" the critical factor for care of Tangs, then we must also hold the exact same requirement for most of aquarium maintained.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR> I'd like to hear more information on this subject if you have time. Do you have any sources for that statement?

I also wanted to point out that the guy who started this thread has a beautiful fish and obviously is providing good care for it. I got caught up in the tang argument not his particular tang.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just acquired knowledge from reading papers, abstracts, published literature, observations, etc. during studies for my MS in Marine Biology. Studies showed that the gut contents had a higher concentration of vegetable matter then other larger angels which are predominately sponges, tunicates, etc., but angels are highly optimistic feeders.

I also got off the topic and caught up in this argument, again!. Just saying that people should not be so negative regarding care of tangs in smaller aquariums.

Joe

 

[oyster]

looking from a holistic point of view, i think that this discussion is getting nowhere. who are we to judge what is the actual requirement for tank size of a certain species of fish. the deductions of tank size is merely based on observation, literatures or experiences and the figures are only as good as the person who came out with them, whom incidently did not create the different species of fishes. so who are we to judge? they are in fact, originated from the vast oceans and thus that is the place where they should be, not 500G, 1000G or whatever. IMO, no realistic tank size is as good as nature itself. so stop deducing on what is the "correct" tank size, there ain't any unless you created those fishes.

 

[Cruiser]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Tangs are different.
All you have to do is observe them in a large tank. They motor at high speed from end to end.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sure I have seen some tang species pace their aquariums, large public displays, and reef slopes within their territory. I have also seen numerous tang species graze in the same situations without the need to "high speed swim ~ frantic pace". Tangs also display different characteristics as juveniles, subadults and adults, and between species.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote

Large wrasse do the same thing.

Yes you are right but they don't have to be large.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Angels, butterflys, bassletts and gobies kind of hang around swimming a bit, poking around here and there.
IMO tangs need large long tanks to do what comes naturally for them.
It is not in their nature to be confined so that they cannot swim.
I stress, all you have to do is observe them in large tanks. The other fish you mentioned, except for large wrasse, do not have that requirement.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You probably missed typed or I'm reading this wrong; however, I humbly suggest that you are mistaken. Observation of all the fish I mentioned, especially angels & butterfly's, should show that they require a large swimming space / volume. I listed a variety of species just to show the adaptivity of fish per volume of water we maintain them in, even though they do require much greater volumes of water.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote

Thank you

Thats just a bit harsh.
Just my opinion and years of experience in maintaining marine fish including very healthy tangs in aquariums and large public displays.

 

[SPC]

Hi Joe, sorry it took me so long to answer, went and played tennis and at my age it takes a while to play 3 sets. Now where were we, oh yea, Tangs. I enjoyed the last 5 or 6 posts as they have been good intelligent discussion, I am sure that if I don't agree with some of your and Steve's thoughts you will understand that I am not flamming you, I just see things differently.
1. I agree with GL about the Angel you mentioned, to expensive, Tangs are dirt cheap. I spend alot of time at my LFS and notice that people spend their time while looking at fish with their head bobbing up and down, look at fish, look at price.
2. It seems that you are a proponent of small tangs in small tanks is ok, what do you propose a person do with the Tang after it has out grown their tank. If one of your choices is return it to the LFS, then couldn't the same argument be made for purchasing a shark egg?
3. I still don't understand what you mean by a fish will not outgrow its environment, I know that in fresh water aquaria the fish will end up stunted and deformed, is this different in salt.
4. You said that a person should only keep two grown Tangs in a 300 gallon tank, well I would say that happens about 1% of the time on these boards and maybe even less in the real world. My question is why would this fish be considered a good fish for most people when they will never have a 150 gallon tank?
As far as any fish that we keep in our aquariums not having the same life as they would in the ocean, thats a no brainer, of course they dont. But to me some are better suited to this life than others, and this is my main point.
As far as fish not having feelings(emotions) we could debate that till the cows come home. Some would say that humans dont either, its all just an illusion.
Well, I guess thats enough rambling for now, thanks for reading my post (maybe even Steve will read it

).
Steve

 

[Anonymous]

Steve,
I have such a bad memory, are you one of the ones I don't read

? I can only not read them for a very short time because I am sooo old my memory is going

.
I am one of those bobbers, I sometimes can't believe what they are asking for a fish that will die in two weeks

.
Which thought dont' you agree with? Now my feelings are hurt

. Oops, I don't have any. Yes I do, and being hurt is why we were given them

. I think I hear the cow bell

.
I would tend to think that the fish that stop growing before they reach "optimum" size are stressed. The yellow tang I had in my 100 gallon was about 4-5 years old and 4-5" long. Is this good growth? or was it stunted? Serious question, I know less about fish than I do about feelings

.
I can't see your point, it's all an illusion, oh no where did my tank go

/

 

[Vins Fins]

This is a good topic, here is how i see it.
Tangs or angels in the ocean are always on the move, why? because of preditors. I don't know about you guys but i haven't seen any sharks crusing around my 180 gal reef.
If you keep them well fed and not crowded then a 120 gal tank is perfectly fine. in my 180 i have a sailfin tang, a majestic angle a french angle, a blue faced angle, a imperator angle, a pink square anthias, a red flame hawk, a clarki clown and a green chromis.
my bio load is high so i have a 200 gal sump/ pond with a huge skimmer to keep the tank healthy. All of the fish have their own territories, no problems with corals either.
as the fish increase in size over the years i intend to up grade to a 750 gal tank size. I 've got some time, most of the angles are small.

[ July 23, 2001: Message edited by: Vins Fins ]

 

[SPC]

Thanks for the post Vinny, very informative. I guess I must be right about Steve Nichols, it dosen't seem like he is going to answer, or did I just imagine him to be there to begin with?

Steve

 

[SnoopDog]

Why don't we all just go get some 300 gallon tanks and be done with it !

 

[SPC]

Quillen, your definition of experienced and my defintion are obviously different.
Steve

 

[marinelife]

Wow this has become one heck of a post, the original post was not to ask questions about the tang but to show everyone how my tang is doing and the changes that it is undergoing. I fully understand and have researched tangs. Right now it is in the biggest one I have open, The tang is I feel by itself in the tank, all other fish in the tank are small. I know the tang can get large and most need alot of swimming room. This is why there is not mush Live Rock (compared to my 180) and why there are not to many other fish in the tank with him. I do have future plans on building a much much larger tank and have even started to work on the design of it, but this is still aways away. The tang is thought to be a Lopez tang but will not know for sure what it is until it gets bigger, there are 4 tangs that look like it does at this present time. I have research and talk to many people about what they need. I am sorry that this thread has turn the way it has, it is sad when one can not post about how a fish is doing without getting flamed about it. I give the Tang the best I can with hopes of in the future giving it more, but I feel it is doing better in my tank than the LFS's tank. Atleast it has a chance to live and not starve to death in a much much smaller tank at the LFS. I know what everyone is going to say, they will just replace it with another one to die. This may to true but even if it did die at the LFS they would replace it anyways. That is the way the closest LFS to me works. If it dies get another one to try and sell. I talk to them about it but they change nothing. We all believe different things when it comes to Reefs. If you want to say my tank is too small than I can say is not everyone's tank to small for anything they are keeping compared to most animals natural habitat. W all have our own opinions but please read the post before blowing up on someone. Thanks Marinelife

 

[naesco]

I am on this board to read advice and to give it and I am going to continue to do so.
I will reply to many 'tang messages' because that is the species I keep and have had experience with.
I really want tang owners to be sucessfull and tangs to be happy.
As a member of this board I owe a duty to those who are new to reefs to give them the best advice I can.
If the advice is jaded it is so based on my observations and experience.
Thank you

 

[jethro]

How can anyone take any fish from the ocean and put it in a tank of any size and say it is humane?

 

[SnoopDog]

Glad I am not the only one getting flamed for owning a Tang.

 

[marinelife]

I am getting flamed for one in my 120, don't tell anyone how many I have in my other tank (4 in a 180 Hippo, Kole, Purple, White-faced)

 

[6_line]

SPC,
This is not a personal attack by any means...However, you seem to be one of the main culprits to what I have mentioned. I frequent many boards and your name pops up whenever someone mentions a tang, and you always seem to mention you do not feel the tang belongs in that tank or any tank. Now I'm not going to go through and list examples of these instances because I don't have time, but this is a fact.
You, as a matter of fact, have stated that you do not believe a Tang should be in any sized tank.
That is all fine and good. That's your opinion and you have a right to it. Many will argue it, some will agree. But it comes up during irrelevent issues, IMO.
I personally believe a tang could fare well in many sized tanks. This Tang issue is becoming one of the most hotly debated issues on any board, as well as Sharks.
Nonetheless, it doesn't hurt me when you say the tang cannot survive in that tank and that's why it has ich.
Not every Tang in smaller tanks (75+) have ich.I had a medium sized tang in my 55 and he's gone now because I felt he deserved a larger tank, especially because of the amount of live rock I had in the Tank. My Tang never had Ich, Black Ich or HLLE or any stress related illnesses. It was perfectly healthy. Now if he had been in a 75 which is somewhat wider, I probably would have kept him.
Green lantern-I understand Scott. M is not the only expert, however, his name comes up as the reference when someone mentions tank size, not HCS3, Horge or any of the others. I exaggerated a bit on the post due to irritation with the no-tang advocates.
I'm not talking small tanks for a tang, but I'm not believing the superfluous claims of appropriate tank sizes many people claim as the only applicable size tank for these fish.

 

[6_line]

Might as well flame me now, when I upgrade to a 90 later this year I'll add a Purple Tang