Live rock Debate

[Anonymous]

Since it has popped up in several threads already I figured I start one dedicated to it to maybe get to the bottom of some questions (that I have at least)

How is liverock collected?

What makes it a renewable resource? (i.e. how is it created?)

Is aquacultured live rock truly aquacultured? (We add rock and then take it out, but the organisms that we take are still being removed. I don't see how this isn't impacting the reef. There is still less there than there was to begin with.)

What's with all the different types and how do they differ?

Glenn

 

[Anonymous]

I'll try to get in touch with Mathias Vanisi (Vanisi live rock) and see if he'll chime in on this. Haven't seen him since he went back to tonga, but I can probably track him down.

 

[MaryHM]

I can't speak for other countries, but I can speak about our Fiji collectors.

In Fiji where the rock is collected, there is about 2 miles of water between the land and the reef. This area is quite shallow, I'd guess it averages 6'-8' at high tide. The rock is just laying scattered all throughout this area. Millions of tons of it. It's pieces of reef structure that get busted off during storms and washed behind the reef. The guys go out with snorkel gear, dive down and pick up the pieces from the bottom. No chisels. Just pick it up and put it in the boat. The reef continues growing, another storm comes and busts parts of it up, it washes back, the reef continues growing, etc.. That's why it's renewable.

Bob Fenner spoke last night at our aquarium club Christmas Party about Fiji. He said that the government actually PAYS Walt Smith to remove rock because it's considered a nuisance in many areas. Also, he stated that there's a land reclamation project going on where the Fijian government is going to dump "fill dirt" into an area to get the land back. It is estimated that 23 million tons of rock will be covered up during this project.

I'll leave the "aquacultured rock" debate for you guys to hash out.

Just like different areas of our country have different landscapes- plains, mountains, forests, etc... so is the reef. Different "landscapes" of the reef create different types of rock. We get 3 types from Fiji- You can view them here: http://www.reefsource.com/Photo%20Gallery/photo_gallery.htm

 

[naesco]

Mary
Did you get a chane to talk with Fenner about this forum?
Thank you

 

[JeremyR]

FWIW, I no longer consider Fenner an unbiased source, ever since he began doing the Q&A for FFE, his stance on cyanide use and such has changed remarkably.. I've seen him post and answer my own personal questions to the effect that he believes cyanide use is on the major decline in indonesia, and that getting cyanide free fish from there is no longer a big deal.. very much contrary to what is printed in his own book, and to what I've seen/heard from the industry in general.

 

[MaryHM]

Naesco-

He ran out right after his presentation. I'm going to send an email.

 

[Bill2]

I can also attest to what Mary said due to the fact is I've seen em collect it.

It is collect in even shallower water than mary stated. Most 3-4 ft. It is usually in very silty area and I have been told by the collectors the best stuff comes from areas near river mouths. I don't know why and I'm sure they could not explain it.

As probably most of you ahve noticed the rock usually has 2 sides... A brown one and the nice purple one we like. Well the purple side is usually buried in the silt/sand and the brown side is exposed to the sun. Everything that we like on the rock growns from incidental light that makes it through the couple inches of sand.

The collectors then throw (yes throw or maybe drop) the "dead ones" as they call em into rubbermaid buckets in the boat. At this point the rock is covered in algea of various sorts but usually sargassm and full of crabs, brittle stars, even some fish and loads of other stuff.

The boat then motors back to the shore where it is loaded onto a truck and taken back to the wherehouse. (sometimes the boat doesn't quite make it back as anticipated but that's another story)

At the wherehouse the rock goes through 2 stages before being readied to be shipped out. The first stage some guys pick off all the macro algea off it. Literally they sit on some buckets or a bench and pick off all the algea. At the end of the day they have a fairly substantial amount. After all the macro is pulled off they wash the rock to get all the silt off and out of all the cracks.

Once the rock is cleanded and readied it is usually stored in bins that have a spray bar constantly spraying on the live rock with water. The rock is then stored this way until shipping day. Usually a day or two

On packing day they load of they live rock boxes and it's surprising how exact they want to get. All those tiny pieces were put in the boxes specifically to get the weight up to 22 kilos. Sometimes on a rare ocassion they have break a piece of live rock to get it into a box so the pieces that seem to be broken off aren't they have just had a piece to be broken off them to fit. They do this because they are they are trying to fit as many live rock boxes in the airline containers and even a little bulging of the boxes can cause problems.

Then the rock is sent to wherever it is going.

To answer your questions rover ime and imo:

I think the above explaination is good enough for how it is collected

Why is it a renewable resource?
Live rock is a direct product of the reef. Unless I am mistaken it is basically the skeletons of old reef building stoney corals. Since most live rock is collected in a lagoonal type setting one would surmise that the skeletons had come from the nearest reef, the one creating the lagoon it is being harvested from. Since rock is not being taken directly from the reef and is being taken from the lagoon the source of the live rock is basically untouched. Hence a renewable resource since the source is not being change.

How does it become live rock?
My theory is live rock is created when a cyclone passes through the islands and tears up the reef and throws tons of stuff behind the reef and this stuff eventually becomes live rock.

How renewable is it?:
Well I would say it depends on the weather were it's coming from. Get a nice cyclone through fiji and you have plenty of live rock just made.

I think my stance on aquacutured rock has been stated.

The differenty types of live rock i'm sure are dependant on the reef building stoney coral that live rock was in it's previous life and or how long the live rock has been being shifted around the lagoon. The different names I believe are more of an indication on where it's collected than a different type of rock.

I hope to write a paper with pictures during my xmas break with pictures so you can see all the steps in all it's glory. (I'm a teacher)

I hope this helped
Bill

 

[Anonymous]

Bill, thank you very much for taking the time to write up your invaluable experience.

 

[naesco]

Bill
I too saw miles and miles of dead live rock where live rock and corals once flourished.
However, it was not cyclones which did the damage. The damage was done by fish collectors dynamiting the reef.
The same problem existed where you were collecting is that correct?

 

[Bill2]

Nope the 2 places in my experience are fiji with the whole process and tahiti when just poking around.

And just so people won't get in a huff make sure you put food fish collectors when talking about dynamite fishing since i'm pretty sure dynamite isn't used in aquarium fish collection.

BTW can you have dead live rock in the ocean?

 

[MaryHM]

Naesco:

No reefs are being dynamited in Fiji.

 

[SPC]

Mary, I can't get the Vatu Tatoka picture to enlarge.
Steve

 

[SPC]

Bill, then when a hobbiest purchases L/R for a reef tank from the location you have described, what they are actually getting is a rock that does not contain the same animals and plants as one from the reef. In fact when we purchase this Fiji rock it is more representitive of a lagoon than an actual reef. It also seems from your description that everyone is turning the wrong side of the rock up in their tanks.
Steve

 

[Bill2]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr> In fact when we purchase this Fiji rock it is more representitive of a lagoon than
an actual reef. <hr></blockquote>

Exactly. There is little loose rock on the reef. At the same time though many of our tanks represent a lagoon due to the lack of water motion so it fits in nicely.


<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote

It also seems from your description that everyone is turning the wrong side of the rock up in their tanks.

Yes and NO. Yes we put up the side of the rock that tends to be in the sand/silt but, that is what we want and many of us do not simulate tropical mid-day sun very well so we can get away with having a lower light algea in direct light.

 

[Anonymous]

Just a quick Question.

If Live rock is such a renewable source? and everytime a hurricane blows through there is new rock evrywhere?

Why is it that along the 3rd largest barrier reef, the Florida Keys, it became neccessary to ban the collection of live rock to protect the reefs?

That does not sound so renewable to me.

 

[Bill2]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr> How renewable is it?:
Well I would say it depends on the weather where it's coming from. Get a nice cyclone through fiji and you have plenty of live rock just made. <hr></blockquote>

And like any resource it can be depleted if taken quicker than it is produced.

How fast is it being produced? I believe there are estimates on how much mass is being added to the GBR on a yearly basis. I'm sure the rates are similar in fiji or any other tropical country. If someone knows a link that would be helpful.

I believe live rock was not targeted in the coral collection ban within the territorial waters of the US. I'm sure it was to fight the curio trade and direct collection of stoney corals. I'm sure Eric or other more knowledgable people could shed some light on this situation.

 

[JeremyR]

And was live rock collection necessary to ban in florida? I've never seen any hard numbers on the subject.. just a bunch of typical propaganda. The ocean is a big place.. even if florida was being depleted, the idea that aquarium collection could deplete the world of "live rock", the vast majority of which is 10#'s and under, is completely ludicrous. Why does everyone have to be an extremist? Why can't we use some common sense and find a happy medium somewhere...

 

[SPC]

Wasn't the actual Tampa Bay live rock collected in the bay itself?
Steve

 

[Cappuccino Bay Aquarium]

The Fla Keys reefs are not producing much new live rock, because there is not alot of stony coral grown. Live rock from The gulf was all composed of fossil rock,{lime stone} made a long time ago. Even tough not renewable, the area that this gulfrock was taken from was so vast,that the idea that we could ever deplete it {or even make a dent} Is very silly...We are talking an area the size of Texas/{ Ps why is there not collection in Texas} The Keys though, there was too much inshore collection from a smaller area. Its funny though , I still never noticed any missing rock from the keys or the 4000 square miles of Gulf, but I sure see a great many fish missing. I wonder which the reefs miss most ,the live rock rubble or the huge schools of fish? Like i have said before, "feel good" bans detract from efforts which might, perhaps,just actually improve the health of the reefs?

 

[fishfarmer]

There was an article many years ago(1989-91?) in FAMA I believe, that talked about the LR harvest off of Florida as being sustainable at the rate of harvest at the time. I may have the article at home.