A Call to Ban Reptiles- Is our Hobby Next??

[MaryHM]

I just got my new issue of Pet Business, which brought to my attention a recent release by the Humane Society. Their goal is to support legislation that would BAN the sale of ALL live reptiles within the United States. I think it's a sobering look at things to come...

You can read the full document here: http://www.hsus.org/news/090601b.html


Here are my comments/concerns. All quotes are directly from the press release above.

Their reasonings to ban reptiles are as follows: Human Health Hazards, Health Hazards to Domestic Livestock and Wildlife, Conservation Concerns, Humane Concerns.


<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote

Human Health Hazards- All reptiles carry Salmonella bacteria. More than 93,000 cases of reptile-related salmonellosis occur each year and the number has risen as reptiles have gained in popularity.

When you first look at the number "93,000", it seems like a lot. But I'd be curious to know how many cases of salmonella are contributed to eating improperly handled/prepared foods every year. Are we going to ban eating chicken too? If the Humane Society is so concerned about Human Health Hazards, why aren't they calling for a ban of cats and dogs as pets? These animals cause many more injuries to people every year. When it gets down to it, the same arguement could be used against the aquarium industry- How many of us have been shocked by our aquariums? There are diseases out there that you can contract from handling marine life...

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Health Hazards to Domestic Livestock and Wildlife- In addition, the release of unwanted pet reptiles into the wild has introduced diseases common in captive reptiles into wild populations, posing a threat to natural populations that hold little immunity to these exotic pathogens.

This argument has already been used against the aquarium industry. The entire Caulerpa fiasco in California earlier this year was blamed solely on home aquarists introducing the invasive species into local ecosystems.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote

Conservation Concerns- The wild-caught reptile trade and the trade in ranched or farmed reptiles , poses threats to wild populations. Among these are: Over-collection...Habitat destruction....

Well, the correalation to the aquarium trade is obvious here. This argument could easily be used against us. However, note the bold type above. They don't only want to eliminate wild collection, but captive bred animals too!! Sobering thought for all of you people who say "Ban the aquarium trade, we'll survive by propping what we've got".

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Humane Concerns- Reptiles are among the most inhumanely treated animals in the pet trade. Because they are cheap and easily replaceable, dealers, particularly those trading in wild-caught reptiles, factor huge mortality into their operating costs. An estimated 90 percent of all wild-caught reptiles are dead within the first year of captivity.

One thing I found highly interesting about this quote was the use of the "90% are dead in the first year" phrase that I've heard so many people say about the aquarium trade. I want to know WHERE IS THE RESEARCH??? Who is tracking these animals from collection to the one year mark and determining mortality?? Or are they just estimating a statistic to sensationalize the facts?? Note that the above quote even says "estimated". If any of you have a link to scientific data that has been collected to support the "90%" statistic, I am extremely interested in viewing it. Since many of you quote this statistic in conjunction with the aquarium trade, I'm assuming someone out there has read the report. Actually, I "estimate" that 99% of you have no idea how this number was determined.

I find reports such as this extremely frightening. They are issued by "extremist" type groups who just so happen to have a larger presence in Washington than the pet trade. It's also easy for them to manipulate facts and use sensationalism to get the general uneducated public on their side. If they succeed at closing the reptile industry, I'm 99% convinced that the aquarium trade will be next on their list. That is why it is SO important for this industry to start policing itself and doing things RIGHT.

Well, those are my humble observations. I'm interested in yours!

 

[esmithiii]

Sobering.

Everyone knows my views on this, so I won't rant and rave. My question is this: how do we oppose this movement?

Ernie

 

[JeremyR]

I read the same article. The humane society is an extremist group that is starting with reptiles, but has a ban on the sale (even by private breeders) of all animals including dogs/cats, birds, fish, & reptiles on their agenda. The same article in pet business said the industry is looking to start some type lobby or something against this report, but also called for improvement in pet stores and wholesalers and such so as not to give them ammunition, which I agree with wholeheartedly.

 

[MaryHM]

Honestly, I don't know what we CAN do other than keep ourselves informed about legislation as it comes up, and then ban together and try to stop/change it as we did for the Caulerpa thing. Again, I think the main problem we face is sensationalism. It's easier to scare people with statistics than it is to inform them of reality. I'm still dying to get my hands on the "90%" study...

 

[chris_h]

If they ban my fish, I will move to a new country.

 

[naesco]

Sensationalism.
Nonesense Mary. Take a look at our own industry and step back.
What you see can sicken you.
This is a wake up call.
One more time
Please control the industry or others will control it for us to the detriment of all.
What don't you people understand?

 

[JeremyR]

It is sensationalism naesco.. the article doesn't even cover fish.. it the humane society wants to stop all sale and keeping of reptiles by americans. But their agenda also covers all other pets.. they don't even want you to be able to buy a dog from a private breeder. It is fanaticism plain and simple. Yes, we all know the industy needs to change.. that's why the forum is here. That's why people like mary are involved in it.. I'm getting tired of the "what don't you people understand" comments.. here is one for you.. what don't YOU understand.. pay attention.. I'm not going to repeat it again.. mary does NOT import most of these fish on the list.. she does NOT import fish from any cyanide countries.. neither do *I*.. so quit picking on *US* and work with us to change the hobby.. or go be an ostrich and stick your head in the ground.. but quit lumping us all together as the "evil industry". If the whole industry is evil.. then so are you for having a fish tank and driving it.. because everyone here drives the industry like it or not.. you buy a bag of salt.. you drive the industry.. you buy a heater.. you drive the industry. Talk is cheap.. and we can argue in here all day about what's right and wrong.. but the truth of the matter is, it's supply and demand.. if the demand exists, someone supplies it. But you won't want me lumping you in with all the HOBBYISTS who drive that demand do you? Get my point?


The above rant is not directed at neasco personally.. but at everyone who has been ragging on the "industry" and blaming all of us for the sins of the big boys.

 

[naesco]

Thank you for your undirected rant but it would not have been necessary if you read the post.
It seems to me that the by and large the industry people who contribute to this forum are the ones that care about the hobby.
Whether it is Greenpeace or the Humane Society they have the support of the people and they have educated and convincing people who will get to the politicians.
They will expose all the ugly warts in the hobby.
Once that happens you can kiss the hobby goodbye.
My point was to write off the Humane Society is to ignore reality. You in the industry need to make certain the bad apples which unfortuneately represent 90% see the writing on the wall. With immediate controls and industry self-regulation (like PADI)you can save the industry and the hobby.

 

[MaryHM]

Naesco,

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr> Sensationalism.
Nonesense Mary. Take a look at our own industry and step back. <hr></blockquote>

I'm sorry Naesco, but the things they point to in their press release are sensationalism, pure and simple.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote

My point was to write off the Humane Society is to ignore reality.

I don't think anyone here is writing off the Humane Society because of their sensationalist approach to the reptile industry. Quite the opposite. It's their use of sensationalist material that is the very reason everyone in the ENTIRE pet industry should be very aware of what is going on. I clearly stated in my original post that their lobby is greater than that of the pet industry, as are their public support. I also ended my post with the following:

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote

That is why it is SO important for this industry to start policing itself and doing things RIGHT.

Bottom line, I'm not sure why your posts seem to be chastising me/the industry based on this particular thread. Then again, maybe I'm just being touchy because I ate too much yesterday

 

[Anonymous]

The Bans are coming plain and simple.
The importation of corals and fish that are currently being fragged and tank raised will be the justification. If a industry can not regulate itself, it will be regulated.

 

[Bill2]

And your basis for this assumption is what?

 

[Anonymous]

Bill

If you look at enough industries that are pointing the finger at no - take ares around the reefs, it is easy to see that importation does not have any allies. That and the fact that there are enough people who are in this hobby and scientists that can see that by banning at least the fish that are being tank raised and corals that are being fragged makes all the sense in the world, the problem is that this type of ban would be impossible to inforce so the next option is to bann all coral. If importers had taken corlas that are fragged and tank raised fish and aquacultured rock off their lists, they would have a leg to stand on but now it may be a little to late. Perception is everything, not just in this hobby.

 

[esmithiii]

They can have my fish when they peel them from my cold, dead fingers.

Ernie

 

[highrpm]

My 2 cents. I have been involved in keeping reptiles and fish for over 15 years. I think some of the stats/quotes from the humane societies are a little over the top. In most cases when salmonella is contracted from a reptile it is from the reptile being kept in a poor environment, they walk/rub on rotting food, owner handles reptile with rotting food on it, licks fingers, gets salmonella. This is why there are restrictions on small turtles. The turles grow algae on their backs, which rots, small children could put the turtles in there mouths, or get it from handling them. The reptile industry just needs educated pet owners, as does the fish industry.

I will agree there are some problems with keeping certain reptiles, but the reptile industry has taken great strides in the past 10 years in the area of captive breeding. You can now get Gila monsters captive bred. Most popular snakes like boas, constrictors, and even a lot of the cobras are captive bred. Most educated reptile owners want a captive bred animal vs. and wild caught animal. They arer usually willing to pay the increased price because the captive animal is healthier, and is used to eating the food we can provide to them. Wild caught animals don't take on to frozen mice as quick as captive animals do. In my opinion it is easier to get a wider variety of captive bred reptiles, than captive bred salt water fish. I think the reef industry could take some pointers from the herp societies.

just my opinion!!!

 

[acidbaby1]

In a recession, I highly doubt governing bodies will be denying importers and pet stores the right to make a living from the sale of reptiles. This is not a time where our government wants to see more people out of work or making less money. I see a change in how our country is looking at reactionist groups like the Humane Society and it's cousin, PETA. People are getting over the political correctness of the past two decades and realizing energy is better spent on more immediate issues, like conservation of certain areas, banning hunting and/or capture in zones like the Dry Tortugas.

 

[MaryHM]

Quote from Fishaholic:

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote

If you look at enough industries that are pointing the finger at no - take ares around the reefs, it is easy to see that importation does not have any allies.

This is simply not true. I just attended the Marine Ornamentals 2001 Conference in Florida. This is not a hobby or industry conference- I'd guess that about 80% of attendees are from universities or conservation type organizations. The first conference in 1999 had a subtle undertone of "importation is bad and should be ended". However, now that everyone has had a couple of years to think it through, the general consensus is that importation CAN be sustainable and there are many organizations working toward that end. In fact, I didn't hear one person saying "Ban the Industry". But I heard numerous people saying the industry is necessary for developing countries and numerous people trying to figure out a way to make it work.

 

[Anonymous]

So you think it is untrue?

List the names of conservation groups that endorse taking fish and corals out of the wild when the can be captive raised?

A cross section of people who paid to travel to and attend a conference on ornimental fish, That is not what I would call an unbiased crowd, but seeing as you say these "conservation type groups" exist lets hear some names.

[ December 27, 2001: Message edited by: Fishaholic ]</p>

 

[MandarinFish]

Evidence? Example?

The Banggai Cardinalfish.

It cannot be taken from the wild any longer. It is not 'sustainable.'

They can be bred in captivity, and that's the only place they should be obtained from.

The salmonella argument is, of course, absolutely silly.

But captive raising and species banning is the way of the walk.

And you will still be able to obtain magnificent animals, Ernie. As I stated in another post, not only can you get great gobies, dottybacks, and clowns, but hopefully soon tangs and angelfish that are captive bred.

Why?

Better for the animal. Better for your tank. Better for the ocean. Better for you, friend.

 

[MaryHM]

Here ya go Fishaholic. Here are the names you requested:

The World Wildlife Fund is the major backer for the Marine Aquarium Council who is trying to create a sustainable industry. In fact, Bruce Bunting, who is the Vice President for WWF's Center for Conservation Finance, was a keynote speaker at the Marine Ornamentals conference. His topic? "Buy a Fish, Buy a Coral, Save a Reef: The Importance of Economic Incentives to Sustain Conservation"

The International Marinelife Alliance is working in the Philippines and Indonesia to train divers to us nets instead of cyanide for both the food fish and aquarium industry. They are also involved in reef restoration projects.

Quote from Clive Wilkenson, Coordinator of the Global Coral Reef Monitoring Network:

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Our goals are dual: supporting development of an industry that provides corals, fish and live rock on a sustainable basis (and hopefully provide communities in developing countries with income) without significant damage to reefs; and conserving coral reefs by minimising collecting and other anthropogenic damage.
<hr></blockquote>

So there's a few names for you of conservation organizations who aren't screaming BAN BAN BAN, but are working on helping to create a sustainable industry. And before you start calling the attendees at a conference you did not attend "biased", I suggest you look at the speaker list to get a good idea of who was in attendance.

http://conference.ifas.ufl.edu/mo/

 

[Anonymous]

Thank you Mary I will give them a call and see how far they do endorse taking wild coral and fish that can be captive raised.