Another Idea......
- Thread starter Anemone
- Start date
Cap, I remember the article about the airport and it was built from coral rock. I think where we might be getting mixed up is live coral reef vs dead coral rock. I was brought up in Miami, 18" to 36" under the ground was solid coral rock, it was also exposed in many places. Now in the article you are speaking of they may have said that the airport was built out of live rock, I just can't remember. What I am curious about is that I would think that these Islands should have dead rock on the shore like Miami, and that this is what would be used for building purposes.
Steve
Steve
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Cappuccino Bay Aquarium:
<strong>Thats about one ton of corls for each hobbists if there are 200,000 coral reef tanks out there? ...........Silly? </strong><hr></blockquote>
What is silly to me is that your "figures" do not incorporate the rest of the world's consumers and the curio trade as well as the fact that many corals die in transit and in store before making it to a hobbyist aquarium. It is easily conceivable to me that a coral I bought that weighed a half pound probably had 100 die before it.
You are creating numbers and images (barges) for your arguement that are in no way based on an understanding of the reality of the trade. I humbly suggest that you familiarize yourself more with the many reports available before arriving at your opinions. You still have not remitted that removal of coral organisms for trade is causing environmental damage.
Another problem with your line of attack is that you only use displacement to defend the trade. Arguing that making an airport is much more destructive than trade does not justify the trade. That rationale is akin to a murderer complaining that he only kills 3-4 people while the Taliban kills more so why not allow him to continue murdering and focus on the Taliban instead.
<strong>Thats about one ton of corls for each hobbists if there are 200,000 coral reef tanks out there? ...........Silly? </strong><hr></blockquote>
What is silly to me is that your "figures" do not incorporate the rest of the world's consumers and the curio trade as well as the fact that many corals die in transit and in store before making it to a hobbyist aquarium. It is easily conceivable to me that a coral I bought that weighed a half pound probably had 100 die before it.
You are creating numbers and images (barges) for your arguement that are in no way based on an understanding of the reality of the trade. I humbly suggest that you familiarize yourself more with the many reports available before arriving at your opinions. You still have not remitted that removal of coral organisms for trade is causing environmental damage.
Another problem with your line of attack is that you only use displacement to defend the trade. Arguing that making an airport is much more destructive than trade does not justify the trade. That rationale is akin to a murderer complaining that he only kills 3-4 people while the Taliban kills more so why not allow him to continue murdering and focus on the Taliban instead.
I've read this post thread with interest. If I may contibute something. If you can regulate licensing with AIR. Then why not with SALT. No salt, no tank, no sale! So we legislate the regulation of salt sales and tie licensing to it. If you mess up and recieve multiple violations, you lose you salt selling/buying previleges. I think it would honsetly work. At least for LFS. As for regulating the consumer, that would require more thought and input. Tell you what, one of us can buy the US based Salt companies and then it would be easy. 
If the main concern here is Fish, that is fine. As for corals, there are plenty of individuals who frag trade or farm. Are we then suggesting some regulatory licensing then be required for these indivduals as well?
If the main concern here is Fish, that is fine. As for corals, there are plenty of individuals who frag trade or farm. Are we then suggesting some regulatory licensing then be required for these indivduals as well?
I am saying that THIS "hobby" has no impact on the coral . what we remove in sps coral is so tiny its silly to worry about it. Lets try another way to expose how small it really is.........How many HARD coral reef tanks are there in Atlanta? One percent of the population would be 4,000 that would be 100 customers for each of the 10 stores that sell hard corals in Atlanta? If each hard sps coral hobbists bought on average four corals a year.......this would be 16,000 corals or 1,600 each and only the Largest store does this volume ...So how many hard coral reef tanks in Atlanta{ which has the largest number of bb posters on the net , I might add} Lets say that it is most likely around 400 tanks at best .{ Hard coral tanks in which the corals are removed from the reef structure.} 400 tanks is one tenth of one percent. Now the US population is 260,000,000 . Lets subtract people in prison, children under the age of eight, and Hawaii and Alaska>>>>>>>>=200 million one tenth of one percent is 20,000---- thats about 20,000 hard coral reef tanks in the US. If each hobbists averaged five corals a year, thats 100,000 corals....100,000 multiplied by the dry skeleton weight of your average sps colony= 100,000 x 4 ounces == Twentyfive thousand pounds or one HALF a Walmart tractor trailer.....Even If one percent of the population bought four corals a year ,this would only be 100 times this half a tractor trailer or at most FIFTY TRACTOR TRAILERS silly -----{-And all of the Airport island was underwater coral },
[ January 04, 2002: Message edited by: Cappuccino Bay Aquarium ]</p>
[ January 04, 2002: Message edited by: Cappuccino Bay Aquarium ]</p>
Again you counter with fabrications of coral purchases. Your estimates may or may not be correct, and I do understand your need for them in order to make your point. However, I very much doubt that you have read any of the real facts and figures still. I know you are not taking this opinion because you believe the coral trade is innocent, you simply haven't been invited into the realm of understanding provided by proper documentation and symposia. Should you familiarize yourself more completely with the plethora of data available in government archives and universities, and even in some .edu webpages, I'm sure you will arrive at the conclusion that this hobby is devastating to individual reef tracts, and threatens the stability of greater chains to varying degrees based on location and removal rates. I applaud your efforts to try and raise awareness to these issues, but I feel you will offer more to your customers if you can base your understanding on more facts. And consumers love knowledge and understanding.
I also tried to find some info about this airport on the internet but no amount of keywords returned any results. Please do ellucidate this issue.
Regards,
Brian
I also tried to find some info about this airport on the internet but no amount of keywords returned any results. Please do ellucidate this issue.
Regards,
Brian
I seriously think Kalkbreath is suffering from Dementia.
Atlanta has the most posters on this BB, so therefor Atlanta has the most reeftanks, OH BOY!
His numbers are still wacked but at least now I am starting to see how he is getting to them.
Maybe someone can explain to him what a very small percentage of people that own reef tanks actually post on line. Hell if you took all of them, they would probably only fill one barge and you could take that barge and float it ....................
Atlanta has the most posters on this BB, so therefor Atlanta has the most reeftanks, OH BOY!
His numbers are still wacked but at least now I am starting to see how he is getting to them.
Maybe someone can explain to him what a very small percentage of people that own reef tanks actually post on line. Hell if you took all of them, they would probably only fill one barge and you could take that barge and float it ....................
Quote from Fishaholic:
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
I have warned you privately and now I will warn you publicly. Do not treat the participants in this forum with sarcasm and disrespect. If you have a differing view, that is fine and welcomed. However, when you stoop to such levels it distracts from the points you are trying to make. Please refrain from this behavior in the future.
Your friendly and quite tolerant moderator,
Mary
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
I have warned you privately and now I will warn you publicly. Do not treat the participants in this forum with sarcasm and disrespect. If you have a differing view, that is fine and welcomed. However, when you stoop to such levels it distracts from the points you are trying to make. Please refrain from this behavior in the future.
Your friendly and quite tolerant moderator,
Mary
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
The "interest" for self regulation is there- time will tell if the "will" for it follows. The "interest" pretty much revolves around the certification program of the Marine Aquarium Council www.aquariumcouncil.org.
There is no way I would say that the majority of people in the industry are reading the boards. I don't know of any other US importer/wholesaler that frequents these boards (Tim Tessier is a Canadian importer/wholesaler), and just a handful of retailers. The entire problem with the industry can be summed up with one word- ATTITUDE. If your attitude is one that is ok with the status quo, that's what you're going to do. If your attitude is to do your part to change the industry for the better, then that's what you're going to do. If the attitude overseas, with the importers, with the retailers, and with the hobbyists was to create a sustainable industry, we could be doing that. The key is to change attitudes.
The "interest" for self regulation is there- time will tell if the "will" for it follows. The "interest" pretty much revolves around the certification program of the Marine Aquarium Council www.aquariumcouncil.org.
There is no way I would say that the majority of people in the industry are reading the boards. I don't know of any other US importer/wholesaler that frequents these boards (Tim Tessier is a Canadian importer/wholesaler), and just a handful of retailers. The entire problem with the industry can be summed up with one word- ATTITUDE. If your attitude is one that is ok with the status quo, that's what you're going to do. If your attitude is to do your part to change the industry for the better, then that's what you're going to do. If the attitude overseas, with the importers, with the retailers, and with the hobbyists was to create a sustainable industry, we could be doing that. The key is to change attitudes.
First of all lets remind everyone there is No real study done on the survivability of animals on the bobby. The closest we have is the gonipora and the mandarin survey here and that is scewed because only people on the internet took it etc. So everything we say.. this fish doesn't survive this coral doesn't survive is all anecdotal. Am I saying we are wrong NO. I'm just saying asking for statistics in this hobby is pretty much worthless because they are none.
Secondly CITIES is not an accurate indication of what is imported. Many CITES permits are issued days to a week ahead. Paperwork crawls even slower in 3rd world countries and exporters must anticipate what they are going to send. If an exporter estimates that 15 acropora sp. will be orderd and someone orders 50 the exporter can only export only 15 because that is what the permit says, so why not over exagerate to the Nth degree. It is the same thing with live rock. The over estimate tonnage and then send what is ordered. The only good indication is the records for fish and wildlife from what i understand. I believe Eric Borneman waded through all the stuff but I have not heard much from it.
Thirdly 80% of hard corals on the reef are brown!! Look at multiple pictures taken of a reef. Not the wooooow pretty coral pictures but the pictures of fish etc that are not focused on pretty corals. Also another 80% of the colored corals are unsuitable for exportation. Some are too big.. too small.. bad location..etc lots of variables.
How does this fit into this thread i don't know but this thread has changed many times and i thought one more wouldn't hurt.
Secondly CITIES is not an accurate indication of what is imported. Many CITES permits are issued days to a week ahead. Paperwork crawls even slower in 3rd world countries and exporters must anticipate what they are going to send. If an exporter estimates that 15 acropora sp. will be orderd and someone orders 50 the exporter can only export only 15 because that is what the permit says, so why not over exagerate to the Nth degree. It is the same thing with live rock. The over estimate tonnage and then send what is ordered. The only good indication is the records for fish and wildlife from what i understand. I believe Eric Borneman waded through all the stuff but I have not heard much from it.
Thirdly 80% of hard corals on the reef are brown!! Look at multiple pictures taken of a reef. Not the wooooow pretty coral pictures but the pictures of fish etc that are not focused on pretty corals. Also another 80% of the colored corals are unsuitable for exportation. Some are too big.. too small.. bad location..etc lots of variables.
How does this fit into this thread i don't know but this thread has changed many times and i thought one more wouldn't hurt.
Does anyone else have any idea how many reef tanks there are in the USA?Seems like a most important one? If some one could come up with a number, then perhaps we could easily do some math and see whats the MOST corals this hobby could possibly be consumming? I have a good guess in Georgia and Atlanta. I ,just tonight talked in person to Ming who runs the Largest Wholesaler in the Southeast{outside of miami}, And I was surprized that they sell $100,000 bucks aweek in Freshwater yet only 500 pieces of hard corals a month? also ,I also checked and his and my CITIES coral permits list the NUMBER OF CORALS SHIPED,NOT THE POUNDS. Sounds like there should be a record of the number of live PIECES of coral into the country?{some where within CITIES?} this would perhaps end all this hype and undo concern? Maybe Mary Might Manage to ask the right person? If we find that the amount of coral this hobby removes is as small as Im sure itis ? Then We will have exculpated the hobby and stopped any coral bans fore ever? JUST PLEASE ASK CITIES FOR THE AMOUNT OF "LIVE" CORALS, AND ASK FOR AN ESTIMATE IN POUNDS.......................not in barges {WINK} -----------Kalkbreath
Oh boy, my first post on this board.
We all need to do what we can to save reef, corals, fish, etc. The government isn't going to be of any help except for keeping it's own shores 'clean'. Therefore, we must support the LFS's that cater to our reef hugging nature. If you want live rock, grow your own live rock. If the LFS sells homegrown liverock and corals, buy it from him/her, assuming its good quality and fair price. Supply and demand will eventually weed out the businesses who are dirty -> that is, if WE do our part.
A license? Gotta be kidding me! I say that as respectfully as I can, but lets be realistic. Our government can't handle the war on drugs, and actually makes it a more profitable business. Our government in no way will be able to do anything to make any country crack down on its hoby fish fishermen, and make them see the error of their ways. Terrorists, yes, quite possibly, but hobby fish? Let us all step back into reality for a moment and think about this. Furthermore, isn't there a few more pressing global issues we should worry about before demanding licenses to own fish that live in H2O, at a salinity range of 1.20-5. Tropical fish taxes! Then, we can get them registered each year like we do our cars. Property tax 'em. Now, how do we handle the brackish fish? Drumroll please...the answer is different tax brackishts.....uhh...That was just horrible.
Anyway, when does it end? Will I need to start selling ounce baggies of fresh clown to support my fish habit, and the required licenses? COPS is going to get great better ratings...just put the coral down, I said put it..scuffling..shots fired..lfs owner down... It's much to late to be awake. Must sleep now.
R
We all need to do what we can to save reef, corals, fish, etc. The government isn't going to be of any help except for keeping it's own shores 'clean'. Therefore, we must support the LFS's that cater to our reef hugging nature. If you want live rock, grow your own live rock. If the LFS sells homegrown liverock and corals, buy it from him/her, assuming its good quality and fair price. Supply and demand will eventually weed out the businesses who are dirty -> that is, if WE do our part.
A license? Gotta be kidding me! I say that as respectfully as I can, but lets be realistic. Our government can't handle the war on drugs, and actually makes it a more profitable business. Our government in no way will be able to do anything to make any country crack down on its hoby fish fishermen, and make them see the error of their ways. Terrorists, yes, quite possibly, but hobby fish? Let us all step back into reality for a moment and think about this. Furthermore, isn't there a few more pressing global issues we should worry about before demanding licenses to own fish that live in H2O, at a salinity range of 1.20-5. Tropical fish taxes! Then, we can get them registered each year like we do our cars. Property tax 'em. Now, how do we handle the brackish fish? Drumroll please...the answer is different tax brackishts.....uhh...That was just horrible.
Anyway, when does it end? Will I need to start selling ounce baggies of fresh clown to support my fish habit, and the required licenses? COPS is going to get great better ratings...just put the coral down, I said put it..scuffling..shots fired..lfs owner down... It's much to late to be awake. Must sleep now.
R
Bear in mind that the increases in 1999-2001 are not reported here. This is from an older report.
In 1997 over 500,000 items and 15,000 kg of stony corals, and 410,000 items and 600,000 kg of reef substrate (live rock) were imported into the U.S. In 1998 the U.S. imported 550,000 items and 94,000 kg of stony corals and 570,000 items and 890,000 kg of reef substrate.
In 1997 over 500,000 items and 15,000 kg of stony corals, and 410,000 items and 600,000 kg of reef substrate (live rock) were imported into the U.S. In 1998 the U.S. imported 550,000 items and 94,000 kg of stony corals and 570,000 items and 890,000 kg of reef substrate.
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by petophile:
<strong>A license? Gotta be kidding me! I say that as respectfully as I can, but lets be realistic. Our government can't handle the war on drugs, and actually makes it a more profitable business. Our government in no way will be able to do anything to make any country crack down on its hoby fish fishermen, and make them see the error of their ways. Tropical fish taxes! Then, we can get them registered each year like we do our cars. Property tax 'em. Now, how do we handle the brackish fish? Drumroll please...the answer is different tax brackishts.....uhh...That was just horrible.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I don't see why this is a difficult concept to grasp. Your barber is licensed. So is your local lawyer, accountant and real estate agent. Unions control participation in many occupations. Are there non-union shops? Sure. But when they become a noticeable blip on the radar screen, the unions mobilize to try and shut them down, or get them to be a union shop. So rather than calling it a "license," if that's so offensive, call it a "membership" (union) card. To buy saltwater critters you have to have a card, and you buy from membership stores, that get their stock from membership wholesalers - wholesalers or retailers who violate the "membership" (union) agreement risk sanctions (either pay the fines or get your membership revoked, and if your membership is revoked, the retailers won't buy from you (if you're a wholesaler), or you lose your window sticker and get your name on a "no longer a member" list so the local customers know (if you're a retailer)). Money can be a pretty strong incentive to stay within the rules.
And thanks for trying to steer this thread back on topic.
Kevin
<strong>A license? Gotta be kidding me! I say that as respectfully as I can, but lets be realistic. Our government can't handle the war on drugs, and actually makes it a more profitable business. Our government in no way will be able to do anything to make any country crack down on its hoby fish fishermen, and make them see the error of their ways. Tropical fish taxes! Then, we can get them registered each year like we do our cars. Property tax 'em. Now, how do we handle the brackish fish? Drumroll please...the answer is different tax brackishts.....uhh...That was just horrible.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I don't see why this is a difficult concept to grasp. Your barber is licensed. So is your local lawyer, accountant and real estate agent. Unions control participation in many occupations. Are there non-union shops? Sure. But when they become a noticeable blip on the radar screen, the unions mobilize to try and shut them down, or get them to be a union shop. So rather than calling it a "license," if that's so offensive, call it a "membership" (union) card. To buy saltwater critters you have to have a card, and you buy from membership stores, that get their stock from membership wholesalers - wholesalers or retailers who violate the "membership" (union) agreement risk sanctions (either pay the fines or get your membership revoked, and if your membership is revoked, the retailers won't buy from you (if you're a wholesaler), or you lose your window sticker and get your name on a "no longer a member" list so the local customers know (if you're a retailer)). Money can be a pretty strong incentive to stay within the rules.
And thanks for trying to steer this thread back on topic.
Kevin
This graf may be correct at 94 klilos but then againit might not ? How was this amount estimated and by who? Like I said Only CITES could come up with a paper trail, and My permits are written in number of items not kilos?Kilogram is a DRY measurement? Also how do you weight a coral / In the bag , out of the bag dripping on the scale? If it is the latter, then maybe thats why so many die in shippng.The hours laying around in piles waiting to be weighed/silly
[ January 05, 2002: Message edited by: Cappuccino Bay Aquarium ]</p>
[ January 05, 2002: Message edited by: Cappuccino Bay Aquarium ]</p>
I did so more math! I Know everyone likes my math! If the estimate of 94,000 kilos or lets sy 100,000 kilos is somehow correct : then 100,000 kilos multiplied by 2.2 gives us 220,000
pounds........or 100 tons........A washing machine BOX filled with solid coral or sand is about 2,000 pounds or one ton .......so a Walmart tractor trailer holds about 200 washing machings {thats 4 across by 25 deep and stacked two height= 200 units =200 tons ...or two years of imports into the US? Even a heathy Florida Keys could sustain this volume, if there were such a thing?
pounds........or 100 tons........A washing machine BOX filled with solid coral or sand is about 2,000 pounds or one ton .......so a Walmart tractor trailer holds about 200 washing machings {thats 4 across by 25 deep and stacked two height= 200 units =200 tons ...or two years of imports into the US? Even a heathy Florida Keys could sustain this volume, if there were such a thing?
Sponsor Reefs
We're a FREE website, and we exist because of hobbyists like YOU who help us run this community.
Click here to sponsor $10:
