Terry's paper Advanced Aquarist

[Terry B]

Peter,
How about developing some sort of system where the fish can be aerated during transport? I am sure that there are some practial problems that would have to be worked out. What about battery operated airpumps? How could water spillage be avoided if the fish were not shipped in sealed bags? I know that fisheries often transport fish in this way, but they are transporting fish in containers that have a lot of fish in them. They keep the water circulating in the container during transport.
Terry B

 

[clarionreef]

Terry,
30-50 fish individual fish per box average can never be shipped like that.
There can be no net training without trainers that actually know what they are doing. There have been enough trainings by people in great need of it themselves. The main three people in charge of the latest MAC training of trainers for example have never caught a fish and never kept one. I'll just leave it at that.
Steve

 

[PeterIMA]

Terry,

Ferdinand Cruz is presently doing experiments with various chemicals added to plastic bags. Since, it is necessary to seal the bags, aeriation is not an option. Even with aeriation in open systems, McFarland and Norris (1958) found that there was a drop in pH and an accumulation of total ammonia. Aeriation in an open system will reduce carbon dioxide to some extent but can not eliminate the accumulation of total ammonia.

McFarland and Norris (1958) found that the pH in sealed plastic bags containing the killifish in seawater declined rather quickly (over the first 8 hours) to a pH of about 6.1-6.2. The accumulation of dissolved carbon dioxide at low pH, and the low pH were believed to contribute to the 50% mortality noted at pH 6.1. They also reported that even though the bags contained adequate dissolved oxygen (from the oxygen gas added to the bags 3/4 oxygen by volume, 1/4 water) the fish could not utilize the oxygen at high carbon dioxide levels. It is believed that the accumulation of carbon dioxide from the fish acidifies the water by forming carbonic acid. Hence, this explains the drop in pH.

At low water pHs (near 6) the blood of the fish becomes more acidic and drops from about 7.8 to 7.0). This affects the ability of the fish haemoglobin to transport oxygen (Bohr and Root effects). Hence, the fish die from a lack of oxygen (asphyxiation).

Phone calls to importers in the Tampa area indicate that most exporters do not add anything to the water to control the pH (like buffers) or to control the accumulation of ammonia (ammonia detoxifying agent). Hence, I believe the fish are stressed by the drop in pH when fish are held in sealed plastic bags for 40 or more hours. There is scientific evidence that the drop in pH can induce the accumulation of stress hormones in the blood (e.g. ephinephrine, cortisol, glucocorticoids). The marked drop in pH and other changes mentioned occur while fish are transported to the villages on collection trips (some trips are for 7-10 days), while fish are held on shore in bags at the village level (often for 5 days or more), and when they are exported by air to destinations with longer transit times (eg, 35-50 hours).

Next, I will discuss efforts to use buffers (e.g. Tris Buffer) and sedatives (e.g. quinaldine, 2-phenoxyethanol) to stabilize the WQ in the bags associated with research to reduce mortality rates of fish in sealed plastic bags.

Peter

 

[naesco]

...but wanted to put on record what I have already learned and that is that the ornamental industry is not interested in spending a dime on improving the survival of the crittters in their care.They are simply interested in getting them over here by the tonnes and dumping the problems on unsuspecting hobbyists.

Wrong wrong wrong. I think many stakeholders on this board object to be painted with that paintbrush. I just spent $20K to try and make my guests stay a little more hospitable in my w/hse. Am I perfect...far from it...but we try.

Where do you shop and we can see if you hold up your end of the bargain as a hobbyist? Do you do the right thing???

Kyle I have not bought anything for well over a year as we moved. We also have two new tanks sitting on the floor waiting for the cabinets.
When I buy you will be the first two know and I will buy them downtown.
Wayne

 

[mkirda]

I am trying to engage you and others on this forum to address what can be done to improve the shipping and handling practices of marine aquarium fish. Stress alleviation and dealing with water quality issues like how to alleviate ammonia buildup, low dissolved oxygen, low pH are where I have been trying to direct the present discussion. Any ideas on these matters would be appreciated.

Peter Rubec

Peter,

I feel like this is pretty simple for some species in some areas- Holding in plastic jars in the ocean. It won't work in all areas- You need calm seas. It won't work for all species- some freak out in the jars and beat themselves up for example..
The best idea is for the fishermen to build a holding station with fresh salt water being pumped in continuously. But that requires capital, which the fishermen don't have.
All the 'solutions' I can come up with all require land and capital.
Marginalized fishermen who are squatters on other's lands as it is cannot and should not be expected to build such facilties... Who buys the pumps? Who pays for the electricity? Who pays for the bricks and cement and aquariums and plumbing?
Bamboo needed for a floating cage is doable. Plastic jars can be donated.
Beyond that, we are limited in what we can do without becoming quite spendy, requiring an investment of several thousand at the very least.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[mkirda]

Peter,
How about developing some sort of system where the fish can be aerated during transport? I am sure that there are some practial problems that would have to be worked out. What about battery operated airpumps? How could water spillage be avoided if the fish were not shipped in sealed bags?

Terry,

It is clear that you have not seen how things are done.
The answer is no, not really.
Not using the currently available methods of transportation (Jeepney) from small remote villages over the Philippines' infamous "corregated highways".
Even the brand-spankin' new freeways are not smooth- They correspond to roughly a Detroit-area freeway in terms of smoothness. By the time the Jeepney left the village, water would be pouring out the back with fish left convulsing on the road behind it.

(Sometimes I think the reason why Filipinos all seem to love Elvis is so that they can sing "All Shook Up". It seems to encapsulate the driving experience so well...)

Frankly, in the packing and transportation from village to exporter leg, the biggest problem will be heat and the stress from shaking the fish up in the bag of water. These will not be easily overcome until more people start driving FXs instead of Jeepneys. These could help with heat- they have A/C, but are mostly configured for people rather than cargo though. They still will not solve the poor condition of the roads, however.

Note that this does not begin to address the holding in the village from time of capture until time of shipping. Here is where the single biggest gain can be made to reduce mortality throughout the chain IMO.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Terry B]

Peter,
I am aware of the effects of low pH, haemoglobin transport, Bohr and Root effects, stress hormones, etc, but thank you for posting the information for others to read. I am currently writing a series of articles on stress in fish. Can you elaborate on the experiments that Ferdinand Cruz is conducting?
Terry B

 

[PeterIMA]

Terry, It is too soon to discuss Ferdinand's results.

What we are interested in determining is whether we can stabilize the WQ conditions in the shipping bags. McFarland and Norris (1958) demonstrated that they could markedly improve the survival time of killifish (Fundulus parvipinnus) is sealed plastic bags by adding Tris Buffer. They added Tris Buffer at two starting pHs to separate shipping bags with fish densities of 65 grams per gallon. In the first case the water was buffered to a starting pH of 8.25. These fish survived for 6 days with 50% mortality reached on the 6th day at a pH of 6.8. In the second case the starting pH was 7.8 and the fish reached the 50% mortality rate after 4.9 days at a pH of 6.5. The main point here is that the fish survived much longer than in the control case where the seawater was not buffered. In the control, the pH dropped from 7.8 to a 50% mortality at pH 6 after 2.1 days (about 50 hours).

The control case is similar to what the importers in Tampa are experiencing. They bring in fish that are right on the edge, and if they know how to acclimate (by placing the fish in clean seawater containing carbon dioxide to depress the pH to about 6.5) they may be able to save the fish. Inexperience importers experience high mortalities under these circumstances.

Basically, what Ferdinand and I are trying to do is evaluate whether it is possible to add chemicals to the water to a) buffer it so that the pH does not drop below 7.0, b) add an ammonia detoxifier (because at higher pHs the form present is toxic unionized ammonia, whereas at lower pH it is ionized ammonium ion which is not toxic, and c) reduce the stress by not allowing the pH and carbonic acid to induce asphyxiation (Bohr and Root effects mentioned previously). I believe there is a window that optimizes the survival of the fish by maintaining the pH between 7 and 7.5.

This is just part of the problem. I will mention more later.

Peter

 

[hdtran]

Is there a CO2 absorbing material compatible with seawater? In the old submarine days (and spacecraft such as Mercury, Gemini, & Apollo), air was recirculated through CO2 scrubbers (think Kalk reactors ) to remove CO2 from the air.

Is there a non-toxic organic or inorganic that can be added to seawater which will absorb CO2 without other adverse effects?

 

[PeterIMA]

Tran,

Yes, they are called buffers. In the presence of the buffer, the carbon dioxide is shifted to bicarbonates preventing it from acidifying the water.

I can not think of any other way of absorbing carbon dioxide other than photosynthesis.

Nice pun about Kalk.

Peter

 

[hdtran]

Peter,

I'm familiar with buffers for pH control; my vague recollection of organic chemistry, physical chemistry, and thermodynamics (which left me cold..) says something about dissociation constants.

I was thinking more along the like of either chemical reactions (if you pass air + CO2 through sodium hydroxide, you form sodium carbonates) or absorption/adsorption to remove CO2.

If you stick a person in a submarine, even if you add oxygen, they die because of rising CO2 levels. If you put in a CO2 scrubber (canisters with calcium hydroxide), the sailors last a lot longer.

The famous problem in Apollo 13 was that the LEM didn't have enough CO2 scrubbers for 3 people.

Hy

 

[Kalkbreath]

. In the control, the pH dropped from 7.8 to a 50% mortality at pH 6 after 2.1 days (about 50 hours).

The control case is similar to what the importers in Tampa are experiencing.

Peter , If the importers in Tampa are reporting 50% DOA. they need to get out of this line of work. And let the boys in LAX do it right. Again, you are using data that is so out of touch with the real world that it is tainting your work. It is impossible for any importer to remain in business with a record of 50% DOA .. This would mean that more delicate fish would come in at 60% to 80% DOA and The bread and butter at 30% to 40% ........to acheive a 50% DOA Average. Then the DAA and reship to LFS DOA would bring the average at 70%plus . Your dreaming if you think the industry can survive with those numbers. Not today with Air freight being the largest cost factor. I Have never even seen a fifty percent DOA shipment at a wholesaler ....And I am in one of the biggest in the USA each week {and trust me they are not the best} I also spent many a time in LAX some years back ....and never saw anything close to 50% . Not that it never happens but it surely is not the average for any of the bigtime importers. Mary, what would you say the average was for you past employers? or the industry average?

 

[PeterIMA]

Kalk, I did not say that Tampa importers had a 50% DOA (at least not presently). The three I talked to all acclimate by moving the fish into low pH water and then letting that equalize (let the pH rise). They now diffuse carbon dioxide into the clean receiving water to lower the pH. After turning off the carbon dioxide infusion, the pH rises from about 6.5 to 7.9 in 3-4 hours. The fish are then transferred to the main holding tanks (pH 8.1-8.3).

One importer stated her present DOA was 8%. A second importer did not give me his DOA, but stated that going to the carbon dioxide acclimation method had reduced his DOA by 5%.

My concern is that without buffering the pH the fish come in extremely stressed. It is not clear to me what happens to the fish with the acclimation treatment described or what the DAA is (either at the importer or after the fish are shipped to retailers). Reports through the grapevine are that one importer using these techniques has fish with a huge mortality when they reach the retailers (50% or more).

I can better understand why retailers on the east coast experience high mortalities (Lallo study in 1997 stated it was 60% on the average). The retailers for the most part do not know how to acclimate. Mortalities will be very high if they buy stressed fish either from a transhipper or from importers/wholesalers situated on the east coast.

This may sound negative, but it is necessary to first define the problem. After that we can find solutions. I believe that better shipping techniques can be developed. That is what this discussion is about. It is not a discussion about whether cyanided fish at the retail level have low or high mortality.

Peter

 

[Kalkbreath]

I agree that we need to define the problems . I would say that 8% is around par for DOA. Just so you know , almost everyone at the wholesale level drops the pH of the transfer water........So this is nothing new. I dont think there is that much room for improvement with 8% DOA. How many of the deaths involved in the 8% are bag water related? With cyanide and all the other ailments that cause fish to die during transport . How much of the 8% can be eliminated?

 

[PeterIMA]

Kalk, Why not answer these questions yourself? Or get your friends to help. What is the DAA? Lets get some input from the lurkers. If there is DAA what causes these mortalities?

With some help maybe we can eliminate the DOA and the DAA.

Peter

 

[Anonymous]

Get them to handle things right in the first place and you'll see the DOA and DAA drop considerably. Trying to find a magic bullet makes no sense and won't help a bit when they'll still put Butterflyfish in jars, using juice, sending tatterred and torn fish that should never have been sent, sending starving fish that will never eat again, don't decompress them properly or poke a hole into them, etc, etc. A fish will die regardless if you shoved some some tri buffers in a breathable bag if its set up for the kill prior to shipping. I think you, Peter, and Ferdie should concentrate on better handling practices, rather then try to cover them up with some "magic bullet".

 

[PeterIMA]

Gresham,
Those are good points. Use of nets, proper decompression techniques, not using cyanide, better handling by use of floating pens or net bags (underwater) are part of the Net-Training program first introduced into the Philippines by Steve Robinson starting in 1984. I am not sure whether these techniques are presently being taught by the MAC. Ferdie taught them when he worked with IMA, and for his present trainings.

Ferdinand is not trying to cover-up bad handling practices. The majority of fish being exported are still not net-caught. You know that fish that are cyanide-caught fish die at a high rate. They may look better (fewer external abrasions) but their liver and other internal organs are toast. So, there is a need for net-training to stop cyanide-collection practices. I support AMDA's efforts to raise funds for more net-training.

Ferdinand and I believe that the other problems that affect fish being shipped (both net-caught and cyanide-caught) also need to be addressed. I have already described them as being stress, ammonia, starvation, pH induced osmoregulatory disfunction, and disease. We need to develop better shipping/transport methods to control water quality. The reduction in pH induces stress (increase in stress hormones) and makes fish more susceptible to disease leading to high DOAs and DAAs. We need to find solutions to these problems in order to make the industry more sustainable and ensure that the fish sold to hobbyists live in the long term.

Thanks for your input,
Peter

 

[Terry B]

I thought that this article fits in well with the discussion about using hyposalinity to reduce losses associated with transport and handling.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/ ... /short.htm

Cheers,
Terry Bartelme

 

[Kalkbreath]

Interesting , but this cant be used in the real world.

The islands, because open systems are the norm and fresh water is too toxic.

At the Importers , because there is not enough time to lower, then raise again prior to shipping to retailers .......

The retailers cant sell fish at this low salt level , because hobbyists wont aclimate long enough.

And the biggest problem is that protein skimmers dont work very well in hyposalinity and bio towers dont respond well to salinity swings [not with thousands of fish placing a load } The advantages to hyposalinity are negated by poor water quality. Yes , it works for public Aquariums because they are dealing with few fish and high water to fish ratios. The real world ,Importers use ocean water {ie Catalina water} Actually,water from the long beach harbor.....with the name Catalina islands on it! Funny , there has been so much rain this month in LAX that the ocean water LA wholesalers have been using has been running quite hyposaline as it is.

 

[Anonymous]

Word! Couldn't have said it better myself, Kalk.