Terry's paper Advanced Aquarist

[dizzy]

I have much different reaction to this method than Jeff or Gresham. I don't see why salinity couldn't be reduced at the exporter level, and kept at hypo until the fish had completed a reasonable quarantine period at the retail level. An organization such as MAC could easily lead the way in coordinating a through out the chain effort to reduce loses to common diseases, using methods such as this. If simply holding the fish for a little longer in quarantine systems can eliminate common disease problems at the consumer level it will be well worth the effort IMO.
Mitch

 

[PeterIMA]

Mitch, I agree with Kalk that the time required to first acclimate marine fishes to low (hypo) salinity at the village and/or exporter level, and the time required to reacclimate them to higher salinity (at the importer and/or retail level) makes this impractical as a shipping technique. It undoubtedly has value for disease control by aquarists either in home or public aquaria.

Ferdinand and I submitted a proposal to study the problems concerning delayed mortality. It looks like we will get the funding soon. We plan to expand the study to all steps of the chain of custody from reefs to retailers. First , there will be static experiments with and without additives in sealed plastic bags at the village level and at the exporter level. Then, we plan to work with several exporters and obtain reports on the water quality, DOA, and DAA (2-5 days) after the fish are received by participating importers. We plan to compare mortalities on fish caught with nets versus those caught with cyanide. As previously stated the delayed mortalities are believed to be due to a variety of factors including cyanide, ammonia, stress, disease (a secondary effect), and starvation. The research is focused on finding the best means to handle, pack, and ship marine aquarium fishes. Approaches similar to work on guppies and tiger barbs (Teo et al. 1989, 1994) will be evaluated. A paper will be published soon on the web throught the SPC "Live Reef Fish Information Bulletin". The paper reviews pertinant literature and discusses briefly the research associated with the study.

PS-While the MAC states collection, handling and transport methods are of concern, I see no evidence that the MAC (or any group contracted by them) is conducting any studies to help alleviate the mortality problem. My review indicates that the mortality rates throught the chain of custody are much higher than the 1% presently required by the MAC Standards.

Peter Rubec
East Asian Seas Initiative

 

[dizzy]

Mitch, I agree with Kalk that the time required to first acclimate marine fishes to low (hypo) salinity at the village and/or exporter level, and the time required to reacclimate them to higher salinity (at the importer and/or retail level) makes this impractical as a shipping technique. It undoubtedly has value for disease control by aquarists either in home or public aquaria.

Peter Rubec
East Asian Seas Initiative

"In these cases, the tank in which the new fish are being introduced to is acclimated to the newly arrived animals. The pH and temperature are adjusted down according to the arriving transport boxes. Salinity in the new tank is at 11ppt (1.008 SG) and the new arrivals are typically between 30 and 33ppt (1.023-1.027 SG). After adjusting pH, temperature, and detoxification of the ammonia, the animals are introduced into the tank. This is an immediate drop of 19 to 22ppt. These animals have shown no signs of shock or stress outside of what would be considered normal through shipping and handling. Quite often, species generally considered delicate and touchy to acclimate have done well in 11ppt and feed normally the next day."

Peter it doesn't sound like taking the fish down to hypo is much of a problem. I don't see why stores couldn't be prepared to receive fish at this lower salinity and place them into similar conditions. It might require a sizable holding/quarantine system, but if the fish had been held in this fashion prior to arrival at the retail level it might reduce the length of time required in quarantine. The stores could bring the fish back up to normal conditions before selling them to their customers. If the cost of receiving parasite free fish is the hassle of slowly reacclimating them to higher salinity, I'll gladly accept the deal.
Mitch

 

[Anonymous]

...We plan to compare mortalities on fish caught with nets versus those caught with cyanide...

Where are you going to obtain juiced fish? I don't think collectors are going to freely admit that they are breaking the law.

 

[Kalkbreath]

Mitch, I agree with Kalk that the time required to first acclimate marine fishes to low (hypo) salinity at the village and/or exporter level, and the time required to reacclimate them to higher salinity (at the importer and/or retail level) makes this impractical as a shipping technique. It undoubtedly has value for disease control by aquarists either in home or public aquaria.

Peter Rubec
East Asian Seas Initiative

"In these cases, the tank in which the new fish are being introduced to is acclimated to the newly arrived animals. The pH and temperature are adjusted down according to the arriving transport boxes. Salinity in the new tank is at 11ppt (1.008 SG) and the new arrivals are typically between 30 and 33ppt (1.023-1.027 SG). After adjusting pH, temperature, and detoxification of the ammonia, the animals are introduced into the tank. This is an immediate drop of 19 to 22ppt. These animals have shown no signs of shock or stress outside of what would be considered normal through shipping and handling. Quite often, species generally considered delicate and touchy to acclimate have done well in 11ppt and feed normally the next day."

Peter it doesn't sound like taking the fish down to hypo is much of a problem. I don't see why stores couldn't be prepared to receive fish at this lower salinity and place them into similar conditions. It might require a sizable holding/quarantine system, but if the fish had been held in this fashion prior to arrival at the retail level it might reduce the length of time required in quarantine. The stores could bring the fish back up to normal conditions before selling them to their customers. If the cost of receiving parasite free fish is the hassle of slowly reacclimating them to higher salinity, I'll gladly accept the deal.
Mitch

Mitch , you will lose more fish due to poor water conditions then you will ever save due to lower salt levels. What fresh water source will the islands use? In Tonga you cant even drink the fresh water. {they drink bottled Fiji water] What will happen when they shut off the open systems?[ to maintain a constant hyposalinity?[ Even The Public Aquarium in Hawaii would crash if they shut off the open system!

 

[Anonymous]

What if a retailer wants/needs to order from seperate wholesalers Mitch? They'll have to have seperate systems for each shipment, right? Could you imagine how many systems an LA wholesaler would have to employee to do this with all arrivals? This method wouldn't even work for us at our level. We don't have the space physically for that many systems. Why just this week alone, we'd need 5 seperate systems. Now what about next week? Do you dump the parameters back down with left over fish in it or do you need even more systems?

 

[Terry B]

There are obviously some obstacles to overcome before a hyposaline transfer and quarantine system could be implemented. I hadn’t thought about a good freshwater source to use to reduce the salinity in remote locations. Would it be possible to set up RO filters? Reducing the salinity quickly is not really much of a problem other than possible complications with pH. The pH tends to fall in diluted saltwater so we may need some sort of buffer. Then again, a slightly reduced pH may be beneficial in counteracting toxic ammonia levels. Raising the salinity back into a NSW range does require a longer acclimation period. However, if the fish are transported and quarantined at the retailer in hyposaline conditions then they could slowly raise the salinity after a period of time. One of the major factors involved in delayed mortality syndrome is hydromineral or osmotic disturbance associated with stress. Such a disturbance is an inherent part of stress in fish. This can be alleviated via salinity manipulation (i.e. hyposaline conditions).

Cheers,
Terry Bartelme

 

[dizzy]

I definitely think this is worthy of more discussion. If a grant is given to study better shipping methods I don't see why this shouldn't be included in the study. If all the wholesalers adopted the policy of keeping their fish at 11ppt the problems Greham envisioned would dissolve. I'm not sure how many fish come out of Tonga, but their water could be adjusted at the wholesale level and onward from there. I not buying that argument that water quality would be worse in lower salinity either. Less salt mix in the water means more frequent water exchanges could be done for the same cost. Get the copper out of the systems and algae filters could be employed to improve water quality. Carbon and resins also become more effective. Despite the nay-sayers I think this could be one of the more important advances in husbandry techinques that I have heard about in my 20 years in the industry.
Mitch

 

[PeterIMA]

Terry, I would be willing to evaluate the hyposalinity aspect in our study. Are there any importers or retailers who would be willing to participate in the study? If interested contact me at [email protected].

Peter Rubec

 

[Kalkbreath]

Every one has open systems .......PI Tonga Fiji etc.
Open systems are their filtration! Stop the fresh ocean water from flowing and all your fish are dead . (90 percent of LAx wholesalers use ocean water } And Skimmers dont work at that low a salinity ! Plus Why is it that we feel there is a need to change the current salinity levels? Is it because some of us still think that there are 68% DOA DAA issues ? :roll:

 

[Kalkbreath]

Every one has open systems .......PI Tonga Fiji etc.
Open systems are their filtration! Stop the fresh ocean water from flowing and all your fish are dead . (90 percent of LAx wholesalers use ocean water } And Skimmers dont work at that low a salinity ! Plus Why is it that we feel there is a need to change the current salinity levels? Is it because some of us still think that there are 68% DOA DAA issues ? :roll:

 

[devils advocate]

How about using larger bags for fish from the Philippines and Indonesia???

 

[Kalkbreath]

IM sure , that would help............ But it sure seems that how the fish are held and handed before shipping has a greater impact on what condition the fish is after shipping .........then what size bag it was shipped in .
An example would be the fact that even if the size of the shipping bag does not change week to week ........ the health of the landed fish does change shipment to shipment?
The Philippines seem to be able to ship fish in Bags that are two-thirds smaller and .......... yet PI fish are by far the most consistent source.
Florida fish seem to be the least healthy? Yet they have the biggest bags and shortest flights?
Which fish leaving a retail store has the best chance at being healthy and long lived, the fish in the biggest bag headed out to the car or the fish best handled while it was on display at the retail store?
Thats why changing from open fresh ocean water systems to closed recirculating systems in an attempt to run hyposaline conditions is risking fish to a plethora of subsequent closed system heath problems and poor water conditions.

 

[PeterIMA]

Kalk, Your last posting has some very good comments/suggestions.

So far, no one has contacted me about participating in the study I discussed previously concerning evaluation of methods to reduce shipping mortality. I guess nobody wants to obtain net-caught fish that have been properly handled and shipped. Another advantage of participating in these evaluations is I can provide fish (a limited number) at less than it costs to purchase them from an importer.

Peter Rubec
[email protected]

 

[Kalkbreath]

You might not expect this from Me , but I am very interested in trying Hyposaline treatments. I have a two hundred gallon experiment system with ten 20 gallon drilled tanks . I have been using this system to treat Clownfish prior to the fish being placed as pairs into anemones. For some reason fish placed in Anemones seem to develop The funky monkey {Broknylia} msp. soon after taking up in the host . Yet clownfish from the sme batch kept in light copper rarely do. The water conditions the anemones are kept in are SPS reef water and cleaner then the copper fish system. So I have been pretreating the fish in various tonics in this 200 gallon treatment system i like to call my "Clownfish motel" Unlike a roach motel , most of the fishes do check out .......but the benifits of resting up in this get away are short live as many of the former residents still get the funky monkey again after being place with anemones. I Will be testing out this hyposaline tonic for the next few weeks in this system.........to sea what effects/affects it has on bruised and stressed fish . Just as soon as I reassure the nitrosomes in the boitower that osmotic shock is not something to fear! and tell the Skimmer that its sevices are no longer need in this department of the store :wink:

 

[dizzy]

My experience with clownfish is different from kalk. I find that copper does little or nothing to prevent them from breaking down with Brooklynella or sliming. If I have had a clown for a couple of weeks without breaking down, rarely do they experience problems later. It is within the first week or two that 99% of the loses occur. I hate using copper as a preventative. It does work, but seems to be hard on certain fish. I see lots of eye problems in angelfish that are kept in copper too long, which can be a little as a week or two. Perhaps some of the problems are from eye flukes, but if I can get them out of copper soon, often the eye problems don't develop like they do if they stay in copper for too long. It sounds like hypo might be effective aganst eye flukes any way. I sure would like to see less nay-saying and more willingness to give this a try. I was at Aquarium restaurant in Nashville and they were using hypo in their large tank with excellent results to treat crypto. There was at least one shark in there too. They certainly had a heavy load in that tank and the skimming seemed to be working. They feed the hell out of the fish too. Water quality almost seems to take care of itself in more natural systems. You might end up growing a lot of hair algae if you didn't keep the nutrients low enough, but a hair algae system can hold some mighty fat and healthy fish. The pod populations can reach incredible numbers in hair algae systems. I don't know about anyone else, but I would rather buy a fat healthy fish that came out of a tank with algae, than a skinny, ragged fish that came out of a tank was spotless clean.

 

[Kalkbreath]

How low was the hypo in AR ? There is a big change from 1.014or 1.016 which is common in retail stores even in Atlanta ......to this even lower suggested 1.008 ........[and with the effects in how a skimmer works].

 

[Kalkbreath]

I wonder what the effect would be on hair algae? I know that too high a salinity sure seems to help the green stuff. Does anyone know if it decreases hair algae in low salt levels?

 

[dizzy]

I don't remember exactly what SG Ken said AR was keeping the tank at. It was low enough that it had the parasites under control. If regular hair algae wouldn't grow at 1.08 I'm sure something else would. There is a form of hair algae that grows in freshwater koi ponds. Also coraline algae can grow in freshwater. A lot of the FW tanks at the Shedd have coraline algae which grows well in the Lake Michigan water.
Mitch

 

[Kalkbreath]

"Blanket weed" in ponds dies with the addition of salt at upper tonic levels so I dont think it could adjust to 1.008......Even in brackish backwaters rich in nutrient ....I have never really seen much hairy algae types ..........If low salinity helps kill off hair algae in Marine tanks and helps fish better warn off disease.........it will be a sure hit !
I did not realize coraline can grow in fresh H2O thats neat!