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Anonymous

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knucklehead":cxojrunx said:
Ps, Dave weren't you a little harsh on SM?

maybe its just me

Maybe it is just you.

This is the second thread that I have responded now where someone has come asking for help and she has made light and given no help. I would hope that if I needed help someone would give some advice.
 
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Anonymous

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I have to take issue with that

The first one, I believe she said for the poster to get help topside.

Now, that is helpful.

It let the poster know that they were in the wrong forum. If I were asking questions in the wrong forum I would like to know about it, wouldn't you?

Bryan
 
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Anonymous

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BTW Dave, have you been getting enough sleep lately?

I find that If I don't get 5-6 hours a night I am unbearably cranky.

Didn''t I read that you were cutting back on the sack time?

or was that someone else?

:wink: Bryan
 
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Anonymous

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seven ephors":2ndi9haj said:
Fishaholic, I am glad that you are posting more and more on the non-The Sumpforum. :wink:

... so try to keep within the topic...

Excuse you, show me where I was off topic?

Btw long before you where a part of this board I was posting out of the sump. :roll:

Also this post as well as the others originated in the sump. :wink:

knucklehead":2ndi9haj said:
I have to take issue with that

The first one, I believe she said for the poster to get help topside.

Now, that is helpful.

Real helpful Bryan, if you are refering to the post about the sick clown fish, the only reply they got topside was to check the sump because I had given him many links to help along with some info. If you are refering to the freshwater DSB, well that is in the sump and the person thanked the people who actually answered his questions and excused those who tried to direct him elsewhere, real helpful.
 

ChrisRD

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OK folks, as this is the New Reefkeepers Forum, this is likely the first impression some our new members will be getting of Reefs.Org.

Let's turn off the flamethrowers and try to stick to the original poster's question. :wink:
 
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ChrisRD":149m5ck0 said:
OK folks, as this is the New Reefkeepers Forum, this is likely the first impression some our new members will be getting of Reefs.Org.

Let's turn off the flamethrowers and try to stick to the original poster's question. :wink:

I wasn't throwing flames, I just think he was being a little harsh with her

BRyan

I will let it drop.

Bryan
 
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And I would like to say that, knowing there would be a VAST myriad of opinions, I was indeed only joking. You said you had crude on the top of your tank, and I ran with it...you've never been to the beaches around Santa Barbara, have you? It certainly wasn't meant as anything personal, so my apologies if I offended. I'm not offended at all, though you do seem a bit cranky. ;) But no worries, yeah?

I spend a HUGE amount of time during my day, each day, answering questions (that's how knucklehead and several others have found their way to this site). Not necessarily here, but I do help many, many people (answering much more directly, as well). Just go to http://www.wetwebmedia.com and look into the Daily FAQ's. (I recently discovered my box was infected by the Sobig I-worm, so I've not been answering or doing any work on the site for a few days.)

All that being said, to offer what you request, I respectfully disagree with you. I would strongly encourage a sump, and even go further and suggest a refugium. Yes, I have worked with VERY large systems (on the order of up to 1,000 - 1,500 gallons and larger) sans sumps. They're a pain in the arse, my friend. Systems so large that one must don bathing suit, mask, and snorkel just to vacuum the gravel and clean the tank walls (sing: Ain't no scraper long enough! Ain't no vacuum strong enough)! LOULE!! (And lemme tell ya, Emperor snappers--MEAN, puffers--if you're not careful you'll come outta there looking like you had a fight with a melon-baller, sharks--the pussies of the sea!)

I will not disagree with the statements regarding the surface slick of organics and whatnot, I have found an overflow, along with powerheads and spraybar outlets (pointed at the water's surface) to be one of the best ways to deal with this. Using a sump not only breaks the surface tension, it increases water flow and surface area, thus increasing the likelihood that you'll have good oxygen saturation.

Jo, I respectfully disagree with the statement calling biowheels and canister filters "nitrate factories". The reasons I take issue with this are:
1: It implies that utilization of other methods of nitrification and filtration will yield lower nitrate readings. This is not necessarily true.
2: I've had too many customers come in and say, "I'm not using x, y, or z, WHY have I got high nitrate readings anyway?"

There will only be significant buildup of nitrates if there were significant amounts of ammonia and nitrite to start off with, and nitrification must happen, these other two compounds (wastes) must be oxidized as they are quite toxic. Utilization of a DSB or other forms of natural nitrate reduction are what rectifies this situation best, in my opinion (yeah, I'll add in foam fractionation, as it will help remove certain compounds before they break down...hopefully, assuming the thing is working properly). Hee! Anyhoo, outside of natural nitrate reduction, large, rather frequent water changes are the only other way to reduce nitrate buildup, which is going to happen whether these methods of filtration are used or not. I do hope I've made some sense here, I'm trying to be concise and succinct (yeah, right, who...ME? :roll: ). There are many who hold this idea of "nitrate factories", but in my honest opinion it belies a misunderstanding of the nitrification process and nutrient export.

My thanks again to MickAv8r for introducing me to Nitrospira bacteria. Must get link, must READ link, must be clear on what function Nitrospira performs, as well as which Nitro it is that doesn't perform the nitrification we thought it did.... :| Must talk to Bob..
 
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seamaiden":1xm8fwch said:
All that being said, to offer what you request, I respectfully disagree with you. I would strongly encourage a sump,

Now that we have gotten back on topic What are you respectfully disagreeing with?

Do you think it is better to have a sump when your tank is not drilled? I know if I read my posts this is the point I have made, that a tank that is not drilled is in my opinion better off to be sumpless.
 
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Fishaholic":429n8k7j said:
a tank that is not drilled is in my opinion better off to be sumpless.

Wouldn't the overflow boxes do the same thing as the drilled overflows, though? What's the difference, Dave? I'm curious as to why you don't think the overflows do the same job. All that matters is the flow-rate going down, IMHO.

Peace,

Chip
 
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Well, yes, Dave. I do think a sump should be used, even with an undrilled tank. This is just my opinion, based on my own experience, of course. My first reef set-up was sans sump, though I did have a HOT filtration system. It used an overflow box with a siphon (I know, I know, bad siphons!) feed. Basically, I don't know of anything better than an overflow for skimming the surface of the film mentioned earlier. The methods to control it still leave it difficult to deal with. That's one of the nice things about a unit that hangs on the back of the tank, though.
 
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Fishaholic":aw4tk6jv said:
seamaiden":aw4tk6jv said:
All that being said, to offer what you request, I respectfully disagree with you. I would strongly encourage a sump,

Now that we have gotten back on topic What are you respectfully disagreeing with?

Do you think it is better to have a sump when your tank is not drilled? I know if I read my posts this is the point I have made, that a tank that is not drilled is in my opinion better off to be sumpless.
yes I do. Not because a supless tank won't work. I just like the sump for an out of the way convenient place to put certain gadgets that to some could be an eyesore in the tank. Especially when you start getting in to bigger size tanks. But that's just my opinion. Whatever works to get the end result is personal preference.
_________________
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LauraH

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Dave,

What kind of skimmer are you using on your sumpless? What kind of bio-load do you have?

I've got a 75gal that I want to set up to get my softies out of my 180gal reef. It's not drilled and I don't care to fool with a siphon overflow down to the sump. Been there, done that, it's a pain.

I've got an overflow box and a HOT mag lying around. It might save me some time and money to go sumpless, but I've never tried it before. I haven't got any experience with hang-on skimmers. Is that what you are using or have you got something bigger rigged up somehow?
 
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all of my reef tanks have/had sumps

none of them were drilled, and they had overflow boxes

the only issue with overflow boxes are turbos/snails crawling into the 'u' tube, and too slow a flow allowing bubbles to collect inside the 'u' tube

my present nano, a 20 long, has a 29 gal sump and an overflow box-the sump enables me to place a nice large skimmer (tunze 3115/2) in it, and also build a dsb/fuge

all nitrifying filters, or any system that does not also involve denitrification, will contribute to the buildup of no3 in a closed system, and even though the nh4 producers (fish, et al)are, in a more pedanticly semantic sense, the real 'factories'(i.e., iniitial producers of the raw product)-a sump/fuge will make it relatively easy to eliminate nitrates completely

my 75 reef ran for four years with no nitrates at all, and had a relatively high load spike cycle, from plankton blooms anf fish spawns

here's a pic of the nano under construction:
 

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bb7551

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:D vitz to the left... that looks like a fire hazard :lol: :mrgreen: check your PM's I loke your tank, need some lps. lol :lol: :D John
 
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LauraH":a0iff0n4 said:
Dave,

What kind of skimmer are you using on your sumpless? What kind of bio-load do you have?

I've got a 75gal that I want to set up to get my softies out of my 180gal reef. It's not drilled and I don't care to fool with a siphon overflow down to the sump. Been there, done that, it's a pain.

I've got an overflow box and a HOT mag lying around. It might save me some time and money to go sumpless, but I've never tried it before. I haven't got any experience with hang-on skimmers. Is that what you are using or have you got something bigger rigged up somehow?

Sorry not to get back quicker Laura, I am in my rush to cram for finals and as such this will be my last post here at RDO for a while, I have a couple weeks off after finals That I am going to leave civilazation behind and build a barn.

Bio Load 90 gallon high, yellow tang, regal tang. Usual suspects in the clean up crew. And a tank full of corals, no sps.

I use the largest hang on protein skimmer I have seen. Butch gave to me so I can not help you with details. The design is better than most as the Impeller is inside the intake that is in the tank. Because of this feature, it makes no noise. Honestly absolutely none. You have to put your hand on the skimmer to tell it is running if you do not see the water moving.

Another benifit I gained in lossing the sump was my calcium stayed up higher and longer than when I had the sump. With the sump I was around 400 with using pickling lime. After going sumpless my calcium levels are always above 440 with the same solution of pickling lime. I also enjoy the skimmer box as a place to drip the solution and allow the pump to spread it.

I have added a pic. Keep in mind it is on a 90 High for perspective. Sorry I am behind on my coralline algae scrapping. 8O





Just one note before I leave and it really applies to new people viewing this thread, be very weary of claims that a certain application or equipment works best in all situations, I have found in reef keeping and many other aspects it is never true.

Take the real gains and wiegh them heavy agianst benifits. I say real gains because I have seen people list a limition of a sumpless and in reality it is a limitation of a sump also, so there is no gain. A example of this is to say the water level is critical in a sumpless that uses a over flow box to elminate organics from the suface is a mute point, it applies evenly well in the use of a sump. Water level when using a surface overflow is the same regardles of sump/no sump. Include noise, a hang on overflow box is very noisy, there is no noise on my sumpless. That being said If I used different equipment it could be very noisy, an overflow box that goes to a sump is noisy regardless.

I have no siphon, huge point that some are attempting to lighten to serve thier point of view, we could spend a whole day on how this design has many limitations as far as the larger the volume of water needed to be moved the more dangerous this design becomes. Siphons do stop when air collects and it is just a matter of time for the conditions to present itself.

I agree that a sump in a drilled tank is a wonderfull thing for some, it also requires more time spent on maintenance and more space required to have a reef aquarium. I have had both in several different sizes and I use a sump on my tank that houses my anemone because it produces a larger volume of water that cause a less swing in specific gravity which anemones are effected by but fish have a biological response to adjust for changes in specific gravity. Of course all saltwater animals are effected by specific gravity but anemones are less tolerent than fish and coral.

There are many different approaches to reef keeping and any time someone makes a blanket statement that this is the best way to do it for all situations, I have a raised eyebrow.
 

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LauraH

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Dave,

If you're still reading...thanks for the info, good luck on the finals, and have fun with the barn.
 

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